I hate French - help!

General discussion about learning languages
Irena
Green Belt
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
Languages: Serbian (N), English (C2), French (C1), Russian (C1), Czech (C1), dabbled in a couple of others, dreaming of many others
x 861

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Irena » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:46 pm

Iversen wrote:I support the advice of s_allard - stop trying to learn French. If you can survive in France and earn money then there are other expats there with whom you can spend your time.


I'm just waiting for Cavesa to read this. ::grabs popcorn::
3 x

Cainntear
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3472
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
Location: Scotland
Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc
x 8671
Contact:

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Cainntear » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:55 pm

Le Baron wrote:
Iversen wrote:And I didn't say that English was completely chaotic. If it was then nobody could learn it.

I know you didn't, but that is the common implication and was the implication further up, as in 'what? You say French is bad, that's rich coming from English!'

Yes, but the very next sentence is "French is what it is."

I think what s_allard was getting at there (jeez, am I about to defend him??? ;) ) was that languages aren't really logical or illogical. If you go in failing to see how arbitrary your own language is, you will never be able to learn the new language, because your attitude will always be that "it should be...", "it should do...". In terms of spelling, English has arguably the least logical orthography in the world, and French is second to it... which is already a significant improvement.

My attitude when learning a language is to celebrate the differences and look for the internal logic behind it. In my early days, I'd often find myself asking "why doesn't English do this?" to overcome the natural tendency to see myself as "normal" and anything I don't naturally do as somehow "not normal".

Over a week since he posted and he hasn't commented again... I have to say, I do wonder about the whole screenname "unionfan" anyway....
6 x

User avatar
Iversen
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 14962

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Iversen » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:29 pm

Maybe the OP just had to let out some steam - but we got a relevant discussion out of it.
0 x

Lisa
Green Belt
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:08 pm
Location: Oregon, United States
Languages: English (N), German (intermediate) Idle: French (beginner) Esperanto (beginner) Spanish (was intermediate)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10854
x 1076

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Lisa » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:45 pm

I can imagine that - in country, and perhaps especially in France - it can feel very much like a power imbalance with French holding all the cards. You have no control; the French language will come up with arbitrary rules and you don't even get to have an opinion. And the French language has (I think) speakers who will not be very sympathetic to your sense of being trapped in an unfair system, and who place a high value on speaking correctly. It's much easier to face French knowing I can walk away any time...

If you persevere, there's perhaps a flavor of Stockholm syndrome... years ago I used to work on software wrappers for some old (cobol-era) packages that really made no sense. After a considerable period of being frustrated and complaining to everyone, I developed an affection for my stupid backend and a sense of self-satisfaction that I could correctly use something with such arbitrary commands. Sometimes I feel that way about possessive its in English (although if it came to a vote I'd be for approving use of the apostrophe).
0 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3515
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9393

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:39 pm

Cainntear wrote:Yes, but the very next sentence is "French is what it is."

I think what s_allard was getting at there (jeez, am I about to defend him??? ;) ) was that languages aren't really logical or illogical. If you go in failing to see how arbitrary your own language is, you will never be able to learn the new language, because your attitude will always be that "it should be...", "it should do...". In terms of spelling, English has arguably the least logical orthography in the world, and French is second to it... which is already a significant improvement.

Yes I saw the next sentence and answered it, because I wasn't challenging that any language isn't what it is or is logical or illogical in itself! I was challenging the tired view that English is especially chaotic in comparison, as is so often wheeled-out, and was wheeled out as a response to someone complaining about French in English. With that very implication.
0 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3515
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9393

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:18 pm

Lisa wrote:And the French language has (I think) speakers who will not be very sympathetic to your sense of being trapped in an unfair system, and who place a high value on speaking correctly. It's much easier to face French knowing I can walk away any time....

Yes. This seems to be either unpalatable for some or they might be simply oblivious. It probably depends how adept a person is in tandem with how empathetic they are towards those who are less adept or less further down the road.

There'll be those here who speak French well and so don't really feel that pain. I used to be a bit ignorant like this, but I once experienced someone deliberately not invite a German person out with a group of us because he didn't speak fluently enough - and asked me 'don't you find it a chore to talk with him?' Even though he wasn't asking them to speak his native language. And whilst it can differ from person to person, I have heard more French people rudely accuse someone of 'butchering' their language than any other native speaker of any other language. It's not great to say it, but it's just true. And there seem to be a lot of amateur spécialistes de la langue française.

And since French people are among the Europeans who speak the worst English and practically no other languages anyway to the point of looking down on them (like they do with Dutch and German), I find the attitude extraordinary.

If anyone would like a quick glimpse into how delusional the French are about their own language, here are some snippets from the government's diplomatic website:

- French is the international language of cooking, fashion, theatre, the visual arts, dance and architecture... (as if all renowned chefs, fashion designers, theatre actors/dramatists, artists, dancers and architects work in French!)

- French is an easy language to learn... (therefore why aren't you speaking it properly ?!!! :lol: )

This gem:
- The ability to speak French and English is an advantage on the international job market. A knowledge of French opens the doors of French companies in France and other French-speaking parts of the world. (Right... 'Cos France is the centre of the economic world.)

- The language of love and reason. (Forget the 'love' bit it's the reason we should pay attention to. This is a very widely-held notion in French, that the language itself especially embodies the tools for 'reason' and clarity for unravelling philosophical problems. This explains much.
4 x

Lisa
Green Belt
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:08 pm
Location: Oregon, United States
Languages: English (N), German (intermediate) Idle: French (beginner) Esperanto (beginner) Spanish (was intermediate)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10854
x 1076

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Lisa » Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:44 am

Le Baron wrote:If anyone would like a quick glimpse into how delusional the French are about their own language...


To be fair, that is marketing and you can't really expect marketing to correspond to reality. And french does show up a lot in many fields; haute couture and pate de foie gras and plein aire and plié... it makes french vocab easier to learn, at least, although I don't think e.g. understanding the parts of plein aire or plié really help you understand the meaning as used in painting or dance.

And also to be fair, French is, or at least was, a high-prestige language... like Disney, the french might want to defend the french "brand" and ensure it retains that exclusive "well if you were an educated person, of course you would speak french correctly". I'm learning it since I want to understand the parts of books that are aimed at people who are educated-and-therefore-know-french (that is, 50-100 years ago), rather than a desire to speak to french people. In all my travels, the only time someone didn't even try to meet me halfway was the Montpelier train station. After that I was vehement that I was done with french. I'm not really over that experience.
1 x

Lisa
Green Belt
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:08 pm
Location: Oregon, United States
Languages: English (N), German (intermediate) Idle: French (beginner) Esperanto (beginner) Spanish (was intermediate)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10854
x 1076

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Lisa » Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:45 am

This really is like group therapy for language learners! :lol:
3 x

Irena
Green Belt
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
Languages: Serbian (N), English (C2), French (C1), Russian (C1), Czech (C1), dabbled in a couple of others, dreaming of many others
x 861

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Irena » Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:06 pm

I find it funny how people complain about the French. I lived in France for a couple of years. When I arrived there, my French was very rusty. But they were very nice to me! In comparison to Czechs, French people are angels to non-native speakers (and that's after adjusting for the non-native speaker's level).
2 x

Irena
Green Belt
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
Languages: Serbian (N), English (C2), French (C1), Russian (C1), Czech (C1), dabbled in a couple of others, dreaming of many others
x 861

Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Irena » Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:16 pm

Lisa wrote:And also to be fair, French is, or at least was, a high-prestige language...


That can actually be helpful for the non-native speaker! They expect you to speak French, and so they do speak French to you.

Over here in Prague, many Czechs seem to have the attitude of "Czech is an irrelevant language, why are you even trying to learn it, you'll never be any good at it anyway, and let's just speak English." Czechs switching to English has been a huge issue for me. The French are far less likely to do that. But now that I'm (at least) a strong B2 in Czech, maybe even C1, this has changed somewhat. But you don't need to be a strong B2 for French people to talk to you in French. They'll settle for lower levels.

Sorry to hear about your Montpellier experience, though...
1 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: leosmith, tastyonions and 2 guests