I hate French - help!

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Le Baron
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Le Baron » Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:26 pm

s_allard wrote:French, nonsensical and illogical ? Well, this coming from a speaker of English is rich

Why is it 'rich'? I've already demolished that old, hackneyed claim that English is somehow the most illogical/nonsensical... For people coming from many language backgrounds (Germans especially find French incomprehensible) French clearly feels illogical or nonsensical. I never used to see this quite so much, but after talking to lots of learners and listening to exactly what their complaints are, I see some of these complaints as legit. As rdearman has said more than once there is a lot of inconsistency and exceptions; there is certainly inconsistency in pronunciations and things like elision/liaison, where the claim for its reason is continually contravened. Where is the logic and euphony in something like 'en haut' where he 'n' is dropped and two vowel sounds clash? Or something like 'n expletif', which is fine if you just heard it used and copied it, but as a learner it probably looks nonsensical. That's just a tiny tip of an iceberg. In contrast to this the teachers of French and the materials I've seen (Bescherelle etc) live in a fantasy world where everything works like logical clockwork.

It needs to be seen from the point of the learner. Also the myth of 'chaotic English' needs putting to bed.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby s_allard » Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:00 pm

Le Baron wrote:
s_allard wrote:French, nonsensical and illogical ? Well, this coming from a speaker of English is rich

Why is it 'rich'? I've already demolished that old, hackneyed claim that English is somehow the most illogical/nonsensical... For people coming from many language backgrounds (Germans especially find French incomprehensible) French clearly feels illogical or nonsensical. I never used to see this quite so much, but after talking to lots of learners and listening to exactly what their complaints are, I see some of these complaints as legit. As rdearman has said more than once there is a lot of inconsistency and exceptions; there is certainly inconsistency in pronunciations and things like elision/liaison, where the claim for its reason is continually contravened. Where is the logic and euphony in something like 'en haut' where he 'n' is dropped and two vowel sounds clash? Or something like 'n expletif', which is fine if you just heard it used and copied it, but as a learner it probably looks nonsensical. That's just a tiny tip of an iceberg. In contrast to this the teachers of French and the materials I've seen (Bescherelle etc) live in a fantasy world where everything works like logical clockwork.

It needs to be seen from the point of the learner. Also the myth of 'chaotic English' needs putting to bed.


The thread is not about whether French is more nonsensical or illogical than English. As far as I’m concerned no language is nonsensical, illogical or chaotic. It is what it is. Why does German put verbs at the end of sentences? That’s crazy. And that gender system with its confusing declensions? Impossible to learn. English prepositional verbs ? What a crazy system. And let’s not talk about English spelling. Totally illogical.

So what ? Every language has its idiosyncrasies. You just have to get used to them. If a language is too crazy for you, choose another language. As they say, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Le Baron » Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:17 pm

s_allard wrote:The thread is not about whether French is more nonsensical or illogical than English.

Then why chip in initially with: "Well, this coming from a speaker of English is rich".
s_allard wrote:As far as I’m concerned no language is nonsensical, illogical or chaotic. It is what it is.

I agree, but they also have oddities and things which are neither logical nor helpful for people from a n L2 perspective (and also not uncommonly from an L1 perspective!).
Why does German put verbs at the end of sentences? That’s crazy. And that gender system with its confusing declensions? Impossible to learn. English prepositional verbs ? What a crazy system. And let’s not talk about English spelling. Totally illogical.

Well...yes, though this contradicts the 'just is what it is' view. The point being made is that French authorities seem to believe French is not as marred by these problems and that it must be the learner's fault. Indeed that was the gist of your prior reply, wasn't it? And the bit below...
s_allard wrote:So what ? Every language has its idiosyncrasies. You just have to get used to them. If a language is too crazy for you, choose another language. As they say, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Le Baron » Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:46 pm

'Polygots' generally seem rather ignorant of the general learner's frustrations. We already know there is a problem with some standard teaching methods and that self-learning isn't a breeze or simple as ABC - the entire reason for a forum like this. Yet when someone who is really only looking for real functional language comes with frustrations they can only be told to 'get out of the kitchen'?
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby FRAnglais1919 » Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:23 pm

Leaving France is an option. Your motivation must come from within. That is not a cliché. No one here has any incentive to make you motivated to learn French. It's up to you. If you struggle to embrace the language of your host country and it distresses you so much, just leave.

Based on your post, I assume you became infuriated with something. Maybe you couldn't understand a native French speaker talking at rapid-fire pace. They probably spoke with that fast Parisian dialect that makes advanced French learners feel like beginners. French listening comprehension is famously difficult (but you can get better with practice). Or maybe it was a convoluted article with unusual, never-before-seen words and you found yourself referring to a translator after every word. That happens to everyone. It makes you wanna pull your hair out, no matter your level. Here is a fact—French will not "sink in like it does for 10-year olds" in your case. You're an adult. The way children learn languages does not apply to you. That ship has sailed. Unless you take the time to sit down and study at least a little every day, you will not improve. As you can see in your situation, immersion alone is not enough.

Now onto more practical advice. First, avoid getting angry at French. The language is neither nonsensical nor illogical. Yes, there are many rules and exceptions to learn, but you will learn them if you try. Many people do and succeed. Second, get your hands on a time-tested grammar textbook that explains each concept thoroughly. It should have examples for each concept. The intermediate "grammaire progressif" is good for that purpose. Also, there are wonderful free resources online that do the same, though they're not as structured as textbooks. LawlessFrench and LingoliaFrançais are two such websites. Having a firm grasp of French grammar is vital for comprehension. Third, ditch the lessons if they frustrate you so much. Do not think that you need a formal course to learn French. Plenty of people learn French well without formal course-like instruction. I hope this helps.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby noblethings » Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:10 pm

I can't relate to your hatred of French, but I do know that attending lessons is the quickest way to for me to stop enjoying a language... Maybe that's the case for you too?
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Iversen » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:18 pm

I support the advice of s_allard - stop trying to learn French. If you can survive in France and earn money then there are other expats there with whom you can spend your time. If you couldn't earn money enough in France to survive then you should leave the country while you still have the means to do so.

As for logic - neither French nor English are logical. No living language is logical. Well, Zamenhof tried to make one, but even in his Esperanto you can point not only to superfluous things, but also to things that simply aren't logical. The supergenius Leibniz also thought that he could construct a logical language, but of course he couldn't. But a completely logical language would be boring. It seems that there is a standard level of difficulty which all languages adhere to - if most of the population can learn them then there will always be people who make them just so much more difficult that the standard level for general learnability is reached again. What you as a learner can hope for is that there are dictionaries and grammars and Wikipedias and people to talk to so that the task becomes somewhat manageable, and with French this is definitely the case. But if you really hate a language (with or without a reason) then none of those things will work, and you can just as well give up - the sooner the better.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:26 pm

Iversen wrote:As for logic - neither French nor English are logical.

I didn't really say that. I was answering the tired trope that English is all chaotic and addressing the falsehood that French (or any other language) is by comparison somehow less so. I addressed it for the specific reason I gave further up and because it is complete nonsense just repeated a meme like 'clowns are scary', when they aren't really.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Iversen » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:30 pm

And I didn't say that English was completely chaotic. If it was then nobody could learn it. The problem with French is that some ardent francophiles have claimed that it was logical - which of course isn't true. There are things in French that are logical, but also some where you simply have to say that it's heritage gone wrong (like the aspirated h in "hache", which isn't there any more but still has an effect on the surroundings), or cases where two word families have collided and left a mess - and why has s'asseoir got three different inflections? ... but French wouldn't be worth learning if it didn't have those quirks. So let's just say that both English and French are regular enough to be learnt, but also irregular enough to make the learning task interesting.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:33 pm

Iversen wrote:And I didn't say that English was completely chaotic. If it was then nobody could learn it.

I know you didn't, but that is the common implication and was the implication further up, as in 'what? You say French is bad, that's rich coming from English!'
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