80/20 Rule in Language Learning

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How does the 80/20 Rule work with Language Learning?

80% of the benefit comes from the first 20% of the work.
13
65%
80% of the benefit comes from the last 20% of the work. *
7
35%
 
Total votes: 20

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luke
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80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby luke » Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:58 pm

Mr. Pareto has a question about the 80/20 rule with respect to language learning:

* Because the last 20% is 80% of the effort. :mrgreen:
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby Le Baron » Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:36 pm

I don't know that it works at all. It's just new work all the time after each milestone and all only related to that section. If I was going to mention any percentage it's like some middle 50% where there's a lot of struggle.
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby iguanamon » Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:53 pm

The ultimate question to answer is "what does a learner want to do with a language?".

If one just wants to communicate basic language and get by, and they don't care how they sound with pronunciation being off; limited vocabulary; poor grammar, etc.- then the first option is for them.

If one wants to be more like theirself in a foreign language- able to talk about almost anything, read and listen to almost anything and understanding it as they would their native language- then the second option would be the one they would want to pursue.

Most people don't want to put multiple coats of paint or varnish on a surface and sand each coat before applying the next. It takes time. It's a hassle. People are impatient and in a hurry. The result of taking one's time with applying a finish is night and day in quality of finish over a quick one coat finish.

It's the same with language. While saying "me want burger" will get the diner a burger, things start to get complicated when the server asks the diner about options- "whole wheat, rye, sesame, or plain bun?"; "grilled or toasted or plain?"; "lettuce, pickle, onion, tomato, jalapeños, mushrooms, bacon, avocado?, "how do you want it cooked- rare, medium, well done?"; "what kind of cheese- cheddar, pepper jack, Swiss, gruyere?"; "ketchup or mustard or mayonnaise?". Or you may get here where I live- "I'm sorry. We're out of burgers. would you like to order something else?" or, "the kitchen just closed". Who knew ordering burgers could be so complicated?! Does the diner's basic language skills prepare them for this onslaught of language that may be above their level?

Still, plenty of people have traveled all over the world with basic and less than basic language skills and have done alright. Sometimes, basic is all we may need or want. If that's the learner's goal, that's fine. With more advanced skills, a traveler will get more out of interactions with people they meet, maybe even make friends, learn more about a culture and the people through the language... but it takes time to learn a language well enough to do this.

That's where the rub lies. Learning a language to a high level takes time and effort. If a learner doesn't want to do that, that's fine. They should accept it and move on. If they want more out of learning a language they need to know that a lot more work needs to be done and that last 20% won't come easily, or quickly. Both approaches are valid and worthy. It all depends on the individual.
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby luke » Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:15 pm

iguanamon wrote:While saying "me want burger" will get the diner a burger, things start to get complicated when the server asks the diner about options- "whole wheat, rye, sesame, or plain bun?"; "grilled or toasted or plain?"; "lettuce, pickle, onion, tomato, jalapeños, mushrooms, bacon, avocado?, "how do you want it cooked- rare, medium, well done?"; "what kind of cheese- cheddar, pepper jack, Swiss, gruyere?"; "ketchup or mustard or mayonnaise?". Or you may get here where I live- "I'm sorry. We're out of burgers. would you like to order something else?" or, "the kitchen just closed". Who knew ordering burgers could be so complicated?! Does the diner's basic language skills prepare them for this onslaught of language that may be above their level?

A great post and actually the funniest one I've read in a long time.

I'm thinking the response in this scenario would be, "me want burger mouth" (pointing at mouth). :lol:
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby språker » Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:28 pm

I get comfort from the idea, that if I am in for the long run, it doesn't matter :-)
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby BeaP » Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:01 pm

My answer: first option

For me this is a vague question and maybe the way people interpret it tells us more about their views on language learning than their answers. I've long had the feeling that some things don't need to be forced to stick. I don't think that every word needs 8 repetitions, some need 0, while others need 20. So I generally move on in my studies with the words that wanted to stick and come back later for the others. When I study a new unit in a textbook, I remember most concepts and a lot of words after the first round. However, I often worry about forgetting some vocabulary and less frequent verb forms. In my experience there's a right time for every vocabulary item and grammar concept. So I tell myself that I shouldn't get bogged down because of perfectionism, I need to move on and look for things that stick now.
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby Le Baron » Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:17 pm

Bottom line however is that I don't think there is a front or back 20% providing that 80% load. And yet... I would say that building a good foundation at the start counts for a lot. Though that might be a different question.
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby Spaceman » Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:09 am

I think this is more of a zen koan than a survey question.
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby garyb » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:05 pm

I've been convinced for a while that there's a rough 80/20 rule along the lines of 80% of a conversation (or book, or whatever) is made up of 20% of the language: basic, common, high-frequency vocabulary and expressions by definition make up most language that's used. So I'm a believer in learning the basics well rather than trying to know as many words and grammar points as possible, although of course as you get more advanced you will want to talk about more specialised areas.

I also think it applies to the learning process in general: getting from B2 to C1 could take four times as long as getting from zero to B2 because of the much greater amount of language to become familiar with, and that's a conservative estimate. Then again, learning the basics is probably the stage where the most hard work and mental effort is needed, even if it takes less time in the grand scheme.

This is all obviously very vague and I'm sure people more into the research could point out that 20% isn't an accurate proportion or whatever, but I feel that as an intentionally rough guideline it works.
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Re: 80/20 Rule in Language Learning

Postby leosmith » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:16 pm

Imo, neither is true. Unfortunately, that was not an option, so I didn't vote.
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