Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

General discussion about learning languages
Ug_Caveman
Green Belt
Posts: 460
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:58 am
Location: England
Languages: English (N), Dutch (A2 - July 2021), working towards B1
x 1075

Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

Postby Ug_Caveman » Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:19 pm

I'm very much the sort of person who ends up paralysed by over-analysis of ideas, and as someone who is interested in learning languages that happen to fall into the same families.

Spanish - Italian - French / Swedish - Norwegian - Danish / English* - Dutch - German

I often consider different ways of tackling them - in particular the order of how I might study them, and figured I'd just do a word-bilge of what my brain has come up with to see if anyone else has any commentary :P (Note these ideas work under the assumption that the trios could be considered (roughly) dialect continuums where one of the languages falls in the 'middle' of the other two and that no language really has priority over the others for necessity of learning):

METHOD 1: The Bridge-Across

Start by studying one language at either end of the dialect continuum (IE: English for West Germanic languages - starred as this is what I'm technically doing), once mastered, move across one step to the second language in the continuum and study until mastered (in this case, Dutch.) Once Dutch has been mastered, study German - completing the trio and building a bridge from one side to the other.

METHOD 2: The Conquer-and-Expand

Start by studying the language in the middle of the continuum (IE: Italian for Romance languages), once mastered, begin studying both French and Spanish at the same time, drawing on Italian sharing similarities with both of them to acts as a boost/springboard and completing the trio.

METHOD 3: The Pincer Movement

Start by studying the two languages at each end of the continuum (IE: Swedish and Danish for North Germanic languages), master these before studying Norwegian to act as a 'bridge' between the two, drawing on the fact both Swedish and Danish share similarities with Norwegian to act as a springboard and completing the trio.

***

Does anyone have any thoughts on how they would consider sequencing languages in related families that they'd like to share/any discussion or analysis of ideas they'd like to add?

(PS: would like to apologise to the speakers of other languages in these families who feel I am neglecting them, these were just simplified models!)
Last edited by Ug_Caveman on Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
6 x
Languages: English (N), Dutch (passed A2 exam in May 2021, failed B1 in May 2023 - never sit an exam when you have food poisoning!)

Seeking: Linguaphone Polish and Linguaphone Afrikaans

Ug_Caveman
Green Belt
Posts: 460
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:58 am
Location: England
Languages: English (N), Dutch (A2 - July 2021), working towards B1
x 1075

Re: Methods of learning related trios of languages - which one would you use?

Postby Ug_Caveman » Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:25 pm

At present I'm using "Method 1" to learn Dutch, seeing as I naturally fall at the 'English' end of the spectrum and would hope to eventually be able to tackle German in the future once I cross the B2/C1 barrier in Dutch (obviously several years away for the time being.)

I'm very chop-and-change with how I consider tackling future languages in the other aforementioned families (mainly because I find it very hard to rank languages in terms of importance - other than Norwegian, which I don't have any real direct use for, the other five all have some very compelling reasons for me to learn.)

I keep having swings between Italian first (given the huge number of speakers in my local area) or French/Spanish first due to the huge international utility (plus the fact I'm hoping to spend some of my professional life in Belgium in a couple of years...)
0 x
Languages: English (N), Dutch (passed A2 exam in May 2021, failed B1 in May 2023 - never sit an exam when you have food poisoning!)

Seeking: Linguaphone Polish and Linguaphone Afrikaans

User avatar
Iversen
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 14962

Re: Methods of learning related trios of languages - which one would you use?

Postby Iversen » Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:04 pm

I don't think in trios or duos, but just in languages being more or less related. And the trios mentioned by the OP don't have any special status for me - but family trees do. I have basically already covered the Germanic and Romance languages, and right now I'm trying also to cover the Slavic languages. And within each of these families I have studied at least half a dozen - not one single trio there.

Let me take something that is even more trio-like than "Spanish - Italian - French", namely Portuguese - Castilian -Catalan. I didn't think about in which order I should learn these -as a teenager I just found a Spanish text book written by the same people as the Italian textbook I already was studying, and then I also began learning Spanish. And I started out learning Italian because it's the language used in most musical scores. Then I added Catalan during my university years because we had a 'lector' (an assistant professor) in the French part of the Romance institute who also was a specialist of Catalan, and he made courses in that language. But there wasn't a parallel course in Portuguese so I first learned that properly because I needed it for some travels in 2006 and 2007 (Cabo Verde, Moçambique). I have never followed a course in neither Spanish nor Portuguese, so availability of courses is not a decisive factor, but availability of materials is definitely relevant.

The trio Swedish - Norwegian - Danish is of course even more unplanned - Danish being my native language, and the other two being so close neighbours that I learned to understand them simultaneously from TV and books already as a youngster. I have studied Swedish as I would study any other new language, but not Norwegian - and the only reason is the lack of suitable materials for New Norwegian. As for duos there are some natural pairs, like Dutch and Afrikaans, and here the relevant factor is of course geography plus the availability of 1½ country that speaks Dutch, while only minority in South Africa speaks Afrikaans (and they don't speak it to me as a tourist) - therefore I learned Dutch before Afrikaans. I don't deliberately try to extend such pairs into trios.

As for looking as target languages as locations on dialect continua ... well, when I study a language I will of course profit from knowing related languages (or dialects), but I still go through the whole process of writing wordlists, studying grammars and bilingual printouts. Knowing something related just speeds up the process. Besides the whole idea of continua is flawed because the languages we actually are presented with represent some 'beacons' that have all but eliminated their immediate neighbours. There is however one kind of continuum which I do take seriously, namely the different phases of my target languages - at least those I know fairly well like Danish and French and English. But I don't think that kind of historical studies helps me much in learning their modern variants.
6 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3510
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9384

Re: Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:03 am

Probably method one: The Bridge-Across. However not in some neat linear way. More like building one bridge - probably even a slapdash rope-bridge - and then swimming/flying across to somewhere else and building a bridge there. I don't have a plan to 'join-up all the dots' as it were, and so there's no need to fill-in or build family networks with a view to slotting in smaller-members (e.g. Corsican or Luxembourgeois) unless I really wanted to.
1 x

Ug_Caveman
Green Belt
Posts: 460
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:58 am
Location: England
Languages: English (N), Dutch (A2 - July 2021), working towards B1
x 1075

Re: Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

Postby Ug_Caveman » Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:20 am

Le Baron wrote:Corsican or Luxembourgeois


Indeed, this is designed to be a heavy oversimplification that focuses primarily on the most popular target languages in each family (it's a trademark of my field - astrophysicists like to discard a lot of things to make our models easier to work with...)

Although I wouldn't mind giving Luxembourgish a crack at some point in the future, just to complete my 'Low Countries' set...
0 x
Languages: English (N), Dutch (passed A2 exam in May 2021, failed B1 in May 2023 - never sit an exam when you have food poisoning!)

Seeking: Linguaphone Polish and Linguaphone Afrikaans

User avatar
Sae
Green Belt
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 1:27 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (Native)
Vietnamese (Intermediate)
Mongolian (Beginner)
Tuvan (Beginner)
Toki Pona (Beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18201
x 836

Re: Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

Postby Sae » Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:30 pm

Hmm, I've not thought about it to this level.
In a way, I've already considered the pincer movement by considering getting Turkish to maybe B1 level, but have scrapped the idea because it doesn't really work with my priorities and I don't think my desire to learn Turkish is strong enough and I have also considered Kazakh to do the same, which is one I am more likely to use than Turkish.

However, for the hypothetical situation I'll remove priorities I have and I can give it some thought between Mongolian, Tuvan and Kazakh and all 3 are languages I'd like to learn and 2 are already in progress.

Although Mongolian is from a different language tree Tuvan has a heavy Mongolian influence and Kazakh is spoken in Mongolia and all 3 have a shared history & culture. And of course, Tuvan and Kazakh are both Turkic.

I don't know how things work for learning the listed languages, so I'll go for my chosen ones.

Method 1: Mongolian -> Tuvan -> Kazakh.
My perceived advantage is that when I go from Mongolian to Tuvan, there's features in Mongolian that exist in Tuvan, so I'll already understand how they work. And Tuvan shares it own versions of Mongolian words, so I would already be familiar. So it would make Tuvan easier to understand whilst I learn new words and learn the features it doesn't share with Mongolian. Then with Kazakh, because Tuvan and Kazakh are Turkic, there's vocabulary and features it shares with Tuvan and not Mongolian. So each language makes the next one easier to understand because it's familiar.

Method 2: Tuvan -> Mongolian & Kazakh.
I don't see an advantage to me in doing it this way. I see a value to staggering the languages I'm learning, it was a year after starting to learn Vietnamese that I started Mongolian, even though my plan was to learn Mongolian when I started Vietnamese. It's because I think if I'm going to learn more than 1 language at once then I'm going to need to stagger them because I have to give the language a lot more attention & focus at the start because there's more to get my head around and to get used to. I can see it being a problem doing 2 at once at the same level. But, at least, say, with my Vietnamese, even if I don't get as much study time in, I have more comprehensible input available to me.

Method 3: Mongolian -> Kazakh -> Tuvan or Kazakh -> Mongolian -> Tuvan
I think there's less of a chance of confusing similarities compared to method 1 and when you reach the third language, you have more familiar ground. EG. "Bayrlyg" and question words like "be" in Tuvan will remind me of "Bayartai" and question words in Mongolian like "be/ve". And words like "Men", "Chok" and features like pronoun repetition will be familiar from Kazakh, and adjust for it appearing as a suffix the second time in Kazakh and not as a separate word, eg: "Siler eki tur siler" in Tuvan is "Siz jaqsısız" in Kazakh (with siz and -siz being the repetition).

So I guess I'd do method 1 or 3. I think 1 is a more consistent & progressive approach, but 3 could potentially be quicker for the final language, but I think could be hindered if you're trying to think too much like it being the middle ground of languages 1 & 2, which in my example languages, there is an element of it. Whilst Tuvan is Turki it is still different to Kazakh and it's not a creole or pidgin of Kazakh and Mongolian and would need to be still treated as its own language with its own rules and vocabulary, so I don't know if it'd be that much quicker. I mean, this is purely on impression, my specific languages & limited experience.

But how I'm probably actually going to do it if I end up adding Kazakh to my list (which is likely) is method 1. I already am doing Mongolian before Tuvan and would not stick Kazakh in the middle as Tuvan is a higher priority and I have more of a use for it.
1 x
Vietnamese Practicing conversation
Mongolian: Learning vocab
Tuvan: Building Decks & full study plan
Tuvan Song Progress (0/3): Learning Daglarym - Lyrics & Melody Learned
Language Fitness 1.5 hr exercise p/w

User avatar
einzelne
Blue Belt
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:33 pm
Languages: Russan (N), English (Working knowledge), French (Reading), German (Reading), Italian (Reading on Kindle)
x 2882

Re: Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

Postby einzelne » Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:33 am

Ug_Caveman wrote:Does anyone have any thoughts on how they would consider sequencing languages in related families that they'd like to share/any discussion or analysis of ideas they'd like to add?


1. Honestly ask yourself the question do you really need all the languages from a family.
2. Drop the languages you don't actually need and learn the one you actually need.

Corollary: there's a high chance that you will drop the whole family, because you actually don't need them at all.
5 x

User avatar
JævligFaen
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:24 am
Languages: English (N), Portuguese-PT (B1)
x 12

Re: Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

Postby JævligFaen » Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:33 pm

I do the same over-analyzing, it's really fun to think about this topic. A fun idea I have is to slowly move across Europe while studying the languages. I live in Portugal now (and I intend to stay here for quite a while) but I still love the idea of moving to Spain some day, then after a few years, France, and so-on.
Not sure if this will be practical for me in reality, but I do think about it sometimes.

It's so cool to see how easily people learn related languages. The other major romance languages interest me a lot so it's very very motivating when I hear about speakers of one romance language learning another one easily.
3 x

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10462

Re: Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:24 pm

Ug_Caveman wrote:I'm very much the sort of person who ends up paralysed by over-analysis of ideas, and as someone who is interested in learning languages that happen to fall into the same families.

Spanish - Italian - French / Swedish - Norwegian - Danish / English* - Dutch - German


You might get some inspiration from this old HTLAL topic (started by Arguelles), albeit for the Slavic family:
Slavic Language Family Learning Sequence
4 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

User avatar
IronMike
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2554
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 6:13 am
Location: Northern Virginia
Languages: Studying: Esperanto
Maintaining: nada
Tested:
BCS, 1+L/1+R (DLPT5, 2022)
Russian, 3/3 (DLPT5, 2022) 2+ (OPI, 2022)
German, 2L/1+R (DLPT5, 2021)
Italian, 1L/2R (DLPT IV, 2019)
Esperanto, C1 (KER skriba ekzameno, 2017)
Slovene, 2+L/3R (DLPT II in, yes, 1999)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5189
x 7265
Contact:

Re: Methods of learning related language trios - which one would you use?

Postby IronMike » Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:55 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
Ug_Caveman wrote:I'm very much the sort of person who ends up paralysed by over-analysis of ideas, and as someone who is interested in learning languages that happen to fall into the same families.

Spanish - Italian - French / Swedish - Norwegian - Danish / English* - Dutch - German


You might get some inspiration from this old HTLAL topic (started by Arguelles), albeit for the Slavic family:
Slavic Language Family Learning Sequence

I didn't have much choice in it, but I learned Russian first and was so glad because once I had to learn Serbian/Croatian, the grammar was SOOOOO much easier.
3 x
You're not a C1 (or B1 or whatever) if you haven't tested.
CEFR --> ILR/DLPT equivalencies
My swimming life.
My reading life.


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dragon27, emk, themethod and 2 guests