The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

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Le Baron
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Le Baron » Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:55 pm

german2k01 wrote:There was a particular word that I was missing to describe her. I was looking for it in a dictionary installed on my phone, and at the same time, the lady had already filled in the missing word. "Sie ist sparsam". She is frugal. Therefore, today I added a new word to my active vocabulary "sparsam".

That's exactly it! Also Saim's description of it as a 'feedback' loop is better than the way I expressed it. A huge number of the functional words anyone will learn in a language come from interaction and communication.
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Serpent » Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:47 pm

Back on the old forum there was a 6 week challenge where several (4-5) experienced learners did 6 weeks of Finnish from scratch, using their preferred methods. Everyone had a different background, I think everyone had had some experience with a "difficult" language (Mandarin, Slavic), and of course at least 1-2 FIGS languages under their belt.
Volte did LR. The number of hours was the same for everyone so as far as I remember she did all her learning in 10-14 days (at the end of the challenge).
According to a tutor who administers CEFR exams, everyone had reached a comparable level and met the criteria of A2 (or A1? not sure but I think it was A2).
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Cavesa » Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:17 pm

german2k01 wrote:Hello Guys,

I am thinking about this question for a while. I thought that I should just ask it.

What level do you think these language immersion learners (input based) be on CEFR level if they sit a test after three years of immersion so to speak?

Considering the fact that such learners get most of their inputs through TV shows, news broadcasts, movies, animes, podcasts, novels, blogs, and mangas. etc

However, testing schools test your language knowledge based on the formal form of the language. All four skills. This is what I am learning in a German language class here in Germany.

I found listening very challenging even though I have done thousands of hours of listening. For example, our teacher reads out the transcript.

His intonation gets changed all of a sudden. He seems like someone who has a Dialect. And then I have to look out for keywords for answers all the while writing them out and then concentrating on the next set of questions. Otherwise, during normal teaching/speaking, I can understand him 99% with no problems.

I just want to quote someone(Sergy from Russia) who followed input-based learning on LingQ, used it as the main tool, and took an official test in German conducted by Goethe Institute. He scored B1 in the actual exam. He has been learning it there for the last three years.

or do you think he lacked certain exam strategies?

P.S.: if my memory serves me right someone(I do not know who it was) here on the forum was telling Le Baron such language immersion learners do not have a higher level beyond A2 or B1 in most cases and the actual cefr exams are tough.

I came across a post by a native German on Quora who was a professional writer in the German language and took an official exam for fun. She wrote that she only achieved the C1 level.

Thanks


I actually did this in Italian. I had little normal learning at first, and then I fell for the wonderful and enjoyable desire to just immerse myself. I was doing that for a few years. Results at the beginning of 2022: C1/C2 passive skills, A2ish active ones, and heavily affected by Spanish and to some extent French. I fixed this by using coursebooks and grammarbooks. I am now waiting my result of PLIDA C1 (but the examiners told me that the speaking was very good. The main question is writing).

Had I taken my PLIDA back then, I would have failed massively the active skills, but done just the same in the passive ones.

There are several problems with the usual Immersion hype that we see on the internet these days (and which is an interesting extreme change compared to a decade ago, when I was exploring this new era of language learning, still discouraged by the problems from the other extreme (=schools).

-Immersion (meaning tons of input) is necessary from B2 on. But it is an inefficient way at the low levels (unless you speak a related language and unless your priority is just comprehension, bound to let you learn mistakes, waste time reinventing the wheel, and so on. It is just so sad to see many people complaining about their progress after hundreds of hours with tv they cannot understand. Also, immersion is not having something turned on as a background. Immersion is not watching stuff just with your native subtitles, nor is it playing apps/games that make you match pictures to something.

-it's not about years at all. It's about hundreds of hours. People ask all the time "for how many years have you been doing this or that..." but it means nothing at all. Immersion works really well, but you need thousands of pages of books (plus other material), you need hundreds of hours of tv shows (and/or other stuff). Three years can mean a few thousand hours, or a few dozen hours.

-It should not be one or the other. Not for most learners. From what I've seen, there are few people, who can learn just from tons of immersion and succeed and not speak/write like a moron. And there are very few people, who can learn just from coursebooks and similar stuff, and not speak/write very unnaturally. We should really stop all the false dichotomy.

-The language exams. The problem is a bit different, than people make it to be. It is not about the exams being totally distant from the reality or just the exam strategies (those are just a part of it). At least not in most cases (yeah, some assignments make more sense than others). The problem people seem to totally gloss over is: grammar and vocabulary and pronunciation ARE judged. Because they are the building blocks you construct all the four applied skills on, especially the productive ones. And active studying of these things helps enormously, and not everyone can catch all that just from input. Most people cannot.

-About the listening issue you describe: you've done thousands of hours of listening, great. Now, how varied has it been? What kinds of content? From what region? Have you been paying attention or was it just background? Have you already tried weaning yourself off subtitles or not yet? All these things matter. And of course you are right that it is sometimes about the questions and strategies (a bit of telepathy too). But it is usually not the whole problem.
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby german2k01 » Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:42 pm

-The language exams. The problem is a bit different, than people make it to be. It is not about the exams being totally distant from the reality or just the exam strategies (those are just a part of it). At least not in most cases (yeah, some assignments make more sense than others). The problem people seem to totally gloss over is: grammar and vocabulary and pronunciation ARE judged. Because they are the building blocks you construct all the four applied skills on, especially the productive ones. And active studying of these things helps enormously, and not everyone can catch all that just from input. Most people cannot.


Agreed. They expect error-free sentences in writing with 99% accurate grammar and fewer spelling mistakes. So what do you reckon how much active listening, active reading, active speaking, and active writing should be a part of my daily language learning routine considering the fact that not everything is picked up with passing listening and extensive reading as you have just said above?


-About the listening issue you describe: you've done thousands of hours of listening, great. Now, how varied has it been? What kinds of content? From what region? Have you been paying attention or was it just background? Have you already tried weaning yourself off subtitles or not yet? All these things matter. And of course you are right that it is sometimes about the questions and strategies (a bit of telepathy too). But it is usually not the whole problem.



The thing is, these language schools, for example, in Germany focus on teaching only formal German. And they need to issue certificates for foreign students to get admission into a German university. So everything is tailored around that goal.
The listening exam is structured in a way that students have to locate key answers and have to write them down at the same time(just like in a typical lecture at the university) while listening to speakers. However, in reality, 9 out of 10 natives speak informal German. Use informal expressions. You have to listen for understanding the gist of the message. I go to a local pharmacy and understand the people working there with no issues. I follow Radio announcements played on trains with no issues. I am not under pressure to locate correct answers and write them down at the same time focus on the next set of questions.

for example, a question requires an answer by writing down " four keywords" I mean 2 keywords I can understand the logic but 4 keywords how on Earth...? and the interlocutor keeps speaking there was no pause/time allocation for writing down answers...it is all done in one go, I mean that is not possible without missing information?

Yes, I have not listened to formal stuff as that is not my immediate need. I am not going to study for a german degree taught in German. I mainly focused on informal sources of input.

The teacher said they would cover grammar concepts 50% at A2, 30% At B1, and 20% at B2. There is no grammar at C1.

That's why I was taking these classes to brush up on all these grammar concepts in a systematic way. It was a good decision for me. It indirectly helped me a lot with my reading. The quality of absorbing the language has increased by many folds. I derived whatever benefits I wanted to derive from attending such classes.

After listening to 100 audiobooks I have clearly noticed that TV shows meant for natives are accessible to me without subtitles which was not the case before. I could easily follow along. Here someone posted live streaming links for world cup matches for soccer. I could follow LIVE commentary at 80-85% understanding with no issues.

Most immersion input comes from informal inputs rather than from formal inputs this is something I need to work on.
Also, I need to do more active listening as well where I should make sure I can understand each and every word. So need to work with transcripts as well.

A couple of days ago I was at a local immigration office to submit my documents for renewing my student visa. The lady started with a serious face but after speaking to me in full-fledged German for 10 minutes. She asked me if I took a German course in Germany. She gained two liters of blood on her face. She all smiled at the end of our conversation.

I am definitely understanding local natives. However, it is nothing like locating keywords/answers for certain questions. It is a different kind of listening experience.
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Irena » Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:11 pm

Cavesa wrote:Immersion (meaning tons of input) is necessary from B2 on. But it is an inefficient way at the low levels (unless you speak a related language and unless your priority is just comprehension, bound to let you learn mistakes, waste time reinventing the wheel, and so on. It is just so sad to see many people complaining about their progress after hundreds of hours with tv they cannot understand. Also, immersion is not having something turned on as a background. Immersion is not watching stuff just with your native subtitles, nor is it playing apps/games that make you match pictures to something.


Ah, you heretic! Not following St. Krashen teachings. :lol:

Seriously, though, I think the popularity of these no-grammar/no-textbook methods comes from the fact that many people simply don't like grammar and textbooks. Some people have a lot of trouble thinking analytically, too, and so they really, truly don't want to deal with conjugations, declensions, and all the rest of it. They badly want to believe they can go "all natural" in language learning. And sure, you can go "all natural," but very few adults who do that end up speaking/writing more or less properly.

Obviously, to get to a relatively high level (even just B2), you do need a ton of input. But you get more out of input if you already know what to look out for, i.e. if you already know the basic mechanics of the language.
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Cavesa » Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:24 pm

Irena wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Immersion...


Ah, you heretic! Not following St. Krashen teachings. :lol:

Seriously, though, I think the popularity of these no-grammar/no-textbook methods comes from the fact that many people simply don't like grammar and textbooks. Some people have a lot of trouble thinking analytically, too, and so they really, truly don't want to deal with conjugations, declensions, and all the rest of it. They badly want to believe they can go "all natural" in language learning. And sure, you can go "all natural," but very few adults who do that end up speaking/writing more or less properly.

Obviously, to get to a relatively high level (even just B2), you do need a ton of input. But you get more out of input if you already know what to look out for, i.e. if you already know the basic mechanics of the language.


Yeah, that's my primary problem with Krashen :-D People online often treat me (or anyone not loving K.) like a heretic and Krashen like a god. And he and his cult have been discussed many times on this forum. He is not universally loved even among his fellow academics, he is not the only person doing some research, and so on. (And don't get me started about the methodology problems of the LL research that I've read.)

I am perfectly ok with some people not liking grammar and textbooks, some people prefering passive skills, or many people not being in any rush. What makes me annoyed and sad are these things:

-people in serious need to learn a language (not just a hobby) being pushed by language learning communities into an inefficient and failing strategy and wasting of months and years on effort. The "avoid textbooks, get an app and just tons of input" pressure blocks them in their personal, educational, or career plans. It is totally ok to learn only as a hobby, but it is also totally ok to need efficient progress in all skills.

-people falling for it, not even trying the more analytical path (even if they have no neurological disorder and otherwise had no serious problem with normal education that had surely required it too), and then being disappointed. I've seen far too many "i've invested 1000 hours and see no results" stories online. Some even start questioning their neurological and mental health instead of questioning the method!

-people blaming textbooks for failures of teachers, or of the school system. The language class trauma is real and very common, but people are barking at the wrong tree. While some textbooks are certainly trash, a good one is usually the only good thing in a class, just badly used. Most "textbooks are bad/grammar is bad" opinions are also based on totally outdated or just ignorant opinions. There are even people so ignorant, that they claim stuff like "textbooks are bad, because there is no audio" in 2022 :-D

-it is not "either-or". It is not "vs". There is no dichotomy. Most people need some % of input, some % of textbooks (to use a simple generalised terminology), which changes based on their level, goals, and personality. I've seen extremely few people succeed just with the natural way, Serpent is one of them. She is exceptional, bright, patient, and has gotten to a high level in Finnish. I am not able to replicate such a feat, in spite of being well above the average in experience and intelligence. I am in the majority and would recommend the mixed approach to everyone, who is not sure they are fit for either of the two extremes.
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Le Baron » Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:51 pm

Irena wrote:Obviously, to get to a relatively high level (even just B2), you do need a ton of input. But you get more out of input if you already know what to look out for, i.e. if you already know the basic mechanics of the language.

Yes indeed. This is where it tends to go wrong, after having started right. The input-only gurus miss a vital point: that all this input helps soften the business of a little grammar study. That as well as the bit I underlined above, input also helps you to get more out of a little study, which helps elucidate input in a time span more like 'many months' rather than 'many years'.
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Kraut » Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:32 pm

Comprehensible Input(CI) Review 600 hours in review so far!
https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearni ... in_review/

He /// an online teacher/// told me he was speaking at about B1-B2 level. However was disappointed with my speaking skills and told me to come back at 600 hours. Im not going to right now because my speaking still sucks balls. Dreaming Spanish they want you speaking to others at 800 hours. Im going to wait until then.
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby badger » Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:15 pm

Kraut wrote:Comprehensible Input(CI) Review 600 hours in review so far!
https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearni ... in_review/

He /// an online teacher/// told me he was speaking at about B1-B2 level. However was disappointed with my speaking skills and told me to come back at 600 hours. Im not going to right now because my speaking still sucks balls. Dreaming Spanish they want you speaking to others at 800 hours. Im going to wait until then.

the line before that quote made me laugh:

"So I specifically found a CI tutor on one of the popular tutor sites at about 500 hours. I had no idea how to f*cking talk.."
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Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Kraut » Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:37 am

german2k01:
Most immersion input comes from informal inputs rather than from formal inputs this is something I need to work on...
Also, I need to do more active listening as well where I should make sure I can understand each and every word. So need to work with transcripts as well...
I am definitely understanding local natives. However, it is nothing like locating keywords/answers for certain questions. It is a different kind of listening experience.


You have found the answers yourself.

There is an older concept, today somewhat contested: the existence of a restricted and an elaborated code in linguistic interactions. You seem the be confonted with both. Your daily interactions with Germans that look alright, somewhat hampered by a lack of vocabulary ( the "sparsam" situation) and a lack of a lot of practical interaction (episodic memory!).



Elaborated codes have a longer, more complicated sentence structure that uses uncommon words and thoughts.
The elaborated code was said to be used in relatively formal, educated situations, permitting people to be reasonably creative in their expression and to use a range of linguistic alternatives. It was thought to be characterized by a fairly high proportion of such features as subordinate clauses, adjectives, the pronoun I and passives.

By contrast, the restricted code was thought to be used in relatively informal situations, stressing the speaker's membership of a group, relying on context for its meaningfulness, and lacking stylistic range. Linguistically it is highly predictable, with a fairly high proportion of pronouns, tag questions, and the use of gestures and intonation to convey meaning.


One can argue that there is not much linguistic context in restricted speech, because much of the context is extra-linguistic.
Whereas elaborated speech might abound in linguistic context, which complicates understanding because you have to filter the complete utterance to get to the key elements.

There may be some German TED Talks that are good for practising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0HPHAn ... =TEDxTalks
E-Mail macht dumm, krank und arm: Anita Eggler at TEDxSalzburg
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There is a recent stylistic creation invented by didacticians, called LEICHTE SPRACHE, directed at newcomers, that is to facilitate their integration in Germany.
It may give you an idea of what one might understand by "restricted code".

Leichte Sprache

Sie haben ein Restaurant?
Dann kochen Sie bestimmt sehr gut.
Oder Ihr Koch kocht sehr gut.
Sie wollen:

Das Essen soll schön aussehen.
Das Essen soll Ihren Gästen lecker schmecken.

Aber auch die Speise·karte muss schön aussehen.
Die Speise·karte sehen Ihre Gäste nämlich als Erstes.
Ihre Gäste sollen dann denken:

Hier schmeckt das Essen bestimmt sehr lecker!

Das ist wichtig für eine schöne Speise·karte:

Gutes Papier.
Schöne Schrift.
Vielleicht schöne Bilder vom Essen.
Sie müssen alle Wörter in der Speise·karte richtig schreiben.

Vielleicht können Sie nicht alle Wörter richtig schreiben.
Dann fragen Sie uns!
Wir sind ein Lektorat.
Ein Lektorat korrigiert Texte.
Korrigieren heißt:

Wir finden die Fehler.
Und wir schreiben die Wörter dann richtig.

Wir können auch Ihre Speise·karte korrigieren.
Zum Beispiel gibt es dann diesen Fehler nicht:

In der Speise·karte soll das Wort Apfel·schorle stehen.
In der Speise·karte steht aber das Wort Apfel·scholle.
Hier ist ein Buchstabe falsch.
Die Gäste können das merken.
Und dann denken die Gäste vielleicht:

Die Speise·karte ist nicht gut!
Vielleicht ist dann auch das Essen nicht gut!

Das können wir für Sie machen:

Wir finden die Fehler.
Und wir schreiben die Wörter dann richtig.
Wir sortieren die Gerichte in der Speise·karte.
Dann sieht die Speise·karte schön ordentlich aus.
Wir können die Texte in der Speise·karte auch neu schreiben.
Dann klingen die Texte schöner.
https://www.anne-fries.de/was-ist-leichte-sprache/

Standardsprache

Frische Zutaten, mit Liebe und Können zusammengestellt, auf den Punkt gegart, gebacken oder gebraten und mit den richtigen Gewürzen abgerundet – so kreieren Sie raffinierte Gaumenfreuden für Ihre Gäste. Doch vor dem Genuss kommt der Blick in die Speisekarte. Sie sollte so gestaltet sein, dass einem schon beim Durchblättern das Wasser im Munde zusammenläuft.

Hochwertiges Material, ansprechende Grafik und – hier kommen wir ins Spiel – die sprachliche Aufbereitung sind dabei nicht zu unterschätzen. Wenn aus der Steckrübe eine Steakrübe wird oder aus der Apfelschorle eine Apfelscholle, sorgt das vielleicht für Heiterkeit bei Tisch, doch es könnte auch leicht der Eindruck entstehen, dass Sie sich in der Küche ebenso wenig Mühe geben wie bei der Rechtschreibung.

Nutzen Sie deshalb den Service eines professionellen Lektorats. Wir schnippeln Ihre Texte so zurecht, dass keine Rechtschreibfehler übrig bleiben, ordnen die Gerichte logisch an und setzen auf Wunsch ein stilistisches Sahnehäubchen drauf.
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