The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
tommus
Blue Belt
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:59 pm
Location: Kingston, ON, Canada
Languages: English (N), French (B2), Dutch (B2)
x 1937

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby tommus » Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:55 pm

german2k01 wrote:He just said your intonation gets changed when reading out text.

In Dutch, there is a significant difference between reading and speaking for one specific thing. The infinitive of most Dutch verbs ends in "en". And the plural of most Dutch nouns ends in "en". So "en" is everywhere. In normal Dutch speaking, the "n" of the "en" is not pronounced. So these words end with an English 'a' sound. But when a Dutch person is reading text, they usually pronounce the "n". You also sometimes hear the 'n' during a formal speech, which probably is partly read anyway. So in Dutch, there is this difference between the spoken and read language. And for learners (especially me), it is very difficult to drop the "n" when speaking Dutch. I would imagine that, in a language exam, if you pronounced the "n" all the time in your speech, you would sound too formal and a bit less fluent, and thus you'd probably get a slightly lower grade.
4 x
Dutch: 01 September -> 31 December 2020
Watch 1000 Dutch TV Series Videos : 40 / 1000

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3578
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9564

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Le Baron » Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:15 pm

german2k01 wrote:He sounds like someone in recording 1 and recording 3. With these kinds of recordings, you have to look out for keywords for your answers. :lol: sure, as a rule, he has to read out the text twice for listening purposes. But still, students find it challenging. Don't you think it is really challenging indeed?

And have all the students openly said that they find it too challenging? Have you said: 'I understand 99% of what you normally say, but I can't follow this dictation'?

In any case you would have to both ask and consider for yourself in what scenarios you would ever be faced with this for it to be a legitimate test. I'd say this is how people talk on TV documentaries, in some interviews (personal and on the news), in lectures, when providing official information. Of course in some of these scenarios you could stop the person and get clarifications, but life is like this usually, where you miss stuff.

You should also get clarification on how this is judged as an exam. Personally I think you shouldn't worry about not getting 100% comprehension. I don't think they expect you to get 100% comprehension, but the tests cannot just be made simple so that students can get 100% comprehension. That would be more artificial. Do ask though, because if they are expecting 100% and all the students think that's impossible then there's a disconnect. There's no shame in making this mutual understanding clear.
1 x
Pedantry is properly the over-rating of any kind of knowledge we pretend to.
- Jonathan Swift

german2k01
Green Belt
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:16 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: English, Urdu, and German
x 578

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby german2k01 » Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:29 pm

And have all the students openly said that they find it too challenging? Have you said: 'I understand 99% of what you normally say, but I can't follow this dictation'?


Yes, after the test the teacher shows how each student fares in listening, writing and reading. Everyone got between 40-60% marks in listening. There were 15 students in total. Nothing above 60%. I scored 57%. Yes, I can understand my teacher who is a native speaker when he is teaching the class. Speaking normally. But we miss a lot of important keywords when he is "dictating". Where the grade actually matters in listening, he is dictating he is not playing a pre-recorded conversation. While he is dictating we have to fill in the correct answers on a question sheet. He is not slowing down. He is speaking like it is already a pre-recorded audio. (As shown in recording1 and recording3).

All he told us we need to do more listening exercises at varying speeds and note down important information. More practice is needed.
0 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3578
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9564

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Le Baron » Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:46 pm

german2k01 wrote:
And have all the students openly said that they find it too challenging? Have you said: 'I understand 99% of what you normally say, but I can't follow this dictation'?


Yes, after the test the teacher shows how each student fares in listening, writing and reading. Everyone got between 40-60% marks in listening. There were 15 students in total. Nothing above 60%. I scored 57%. Yes, I can understand my teacher who is a native speaker when he is teaching the class. Speaking normally. But we miss a lot of important keywords when he is "dictating". Where the grade actually matters in listening, he is dictating he is not playing a pre-recorded conversation. While he is dictating we have to fill in the correct answers on a question sheet. He is not slowing down. He is speaking like it is already a pre-recorded audio. (As shown in recording1 and recording3).

All he told us we need to do more listening exercises at varying speeds and note down important information. More practice is needed.


It may be less problematic than you think. I've done listening exams like this. I missed stuff and so did most people. In one exam there were only four of us who managed 75%. I think it's more the case that there is a high barrier on purpose as a real test. Also that in real life you'll rarely face this barrier on a daily basis, if at all.

I understand the concept of needing to get a certain grade for a presentable certificate, but consider the information you already provided: that you understand him when speaking 'normally'. This is all you really need in terms of your own daily existence within German. Every exam in every subject which is examined is different and more difficult than you encounter in most situations, this is what exams are, a test under pressure.

I didn't do two of the German exams, but of the ones I did do I thought I had failed them and so did most others in the class. Yet we didn't. There were also people who felt they'd been unfairly marked down on things that were unclear or too difficult etc. I suppose this is the imperfect nature of exams. Reassure yourself that what matters in the final analysis is how you actually communicate. That is: if you can understand people and they can understand you in the vast majority of situations. If you can do that even in difficult scenarios, but the exam result says: 'B1', well they don't match and that's that. People aren't stupid, they'll see a person more/less able than the letters and numbers declare.

Think about this. You turn up for a job interview/education entrance interview or any formal meeting and you communicate perfectly well. Understanding your interlocutor and they understand you. It would be pretty foolish for them to simply revert to the certificate declaration as the only measure. That goes for a high score as well as a middle score. Of course this is all stressful in the exam period, but you just have to do what you can and also make it known if you think it's genuinely problematic.
2 x
Pedantry is properly the over-rating of any kind of knowledge we pretend to.
- Jonathan Swift

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3153
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10542

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:13 pm

german2k01 wrote:I found listening very challenging even though I have done thousands of hours of listening. For example, our teacher reads out the transcript.

His intonation gets changed all of a sudden. He seems like someone who has a Dialect. And then I have to look out for keywords for answers all the while writing them out and then concentrating on the next set of questions. Otherwise, during normal teaching/speaking, I can understand him 99% with no problems.


Late to the party.

Even for native speakers, reading aloud can indeed sound like something else than natural speech. Perhaps the person adopts a "narrator's voice", perhaps it's a form of diglossia (where the written form is different from the spoken - to some extent), perhaps it's just that you're used to a certain person's accent without reflecting that they normally skip some sounds/endings and as a result they sound overly formal when reading a text.

Just a few thoughts.
4 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

User avatar
Saim
Blue Belt
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:14 pm
Location: Rheinland
Languages: Native: English
Others: Catalan, Serbian, Spanish, Polish, Hungarian, Urdu, French etc.
Main focus: German
x 2334

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Saim » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:27 pm

german2k01 wrote:I just want to quote someone(Sergy from Russia) who followed input-based learning on LingQ, used it as the main tool, and took an official test in German conducted by Goethe Institute. He scored B1 in the actual exam. He has been learning it there for the last three years.


CEFR exams test grammatical accuracy, active vocabulary and fluidity of speech. These are all things that can remain underdeveloped with an imbalanced input-heavy approach.

german2k01 wrote:His intonation gets changed all of a sudden. He seems like someone who has a Dialect. And then I have to look out for keywords for answers all the while writing them out and then concentrating on the next set of questions. Otherwise, during normal teaching/speaking, I can understand him 99% with no problems.


If you're mainly focusing on listening it may be that you're not familiar with certain constructions common in formal German or that there was too much vocabulary from a specific domain that you don't know (these terms may be more "packed together" in a text, whereas the teacher will tend to introduce them more progressively while speaking "normally"). Maybe spending more time reading non-fiction texts will help you resolve this.
Last edited by Saim on Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
4 x
log

شجرِ ممنوع 152

User avatar
tiia
Blue Belt
Posts: 751
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:52 pm
Location: Finland
Languages: German (N), English (?), Finnish (C1), Spanish (B2??), Swedish (B2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=2374
x 2058

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby tiia » Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:09 pm

german2k01 wrote:He sounds like someone in recording 1 and recording 3. With these kinds of recordings, you have to look out for keywords for your answers. :lol: sure, as a rule, he has to read out the text twice for listening purposes. But still, students find it challenging. Don't you think it is really challenging indeed?

Well, a mixture of 1 and 3 means probably a normal reading voice. I mean recording 1 is how I would read wikipedia. Recording 3 is trying to read wikipedia like a fairytale. (I had to practise with a fairytale before the recording.) Assuming that the texts you're using in the courses lie somewhere between fairytales and wikipedia, it's not really a surprise the intonation is somewhere in between.
So it's probabaly just a normal German reading voice your teacher is using.

How was recording 4? Was it easier to understand than the rest?
Because when doing this one, I noticed how much I missed using fillers and that I was pausing a bit more here and there. Had to take my time. I also noticed that the wikipedia sentences where slightly too long for a good presentation/speech. (A speech would be written differently.)
Normal speech in a classroom setting includes probably way more breaks (and fillers), which could make a huge difference as you get more time to process what has been said.
3 x
Corrections for entries written in Finnish, Spanish or Swedish are welcome.
Project 30+X: 25 / 30

german2k01
Green Belt
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:16 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: English, Urdu, and German
x 578

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby german2k01 » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:57 pm

How was recording 4? Was it easier to understand than the rest?


For me, it was easier than the rest. When I said recording 1 and 3, it is a rough estimation. It might be his normal reading voice. I feel like you have no dialect. My teacher has a little bit in his throat (Schleim) like someone with a dialect usually have. You do not have it. I have heard old German ladies with dialects so their intonation sounds a little bit different.

Natives with Standard German sounds like @1.30. My teacher does not sound like this when dictating. He sounds to have something similar to @ 2.32 , do you detect something in her throat when she is reading "Können Sie vielleicht mal zur Seite gehen, ich kann doch nicht fliegen" barring excitement part as he is reading a serious text. There is something in her throat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cMRhmBfAQY

He dictates texts like this for example. Definitely no fairytales.
Listening_Transcription.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
0 x

Online
Kraut
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2618
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:37 pm
Languages: German (N)
French (C)
English (C)
Spanish (A2)
Lithuanian
x 3224

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Kraut » Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:25 am

german2k01 wrote:
How was recording 4? Was it easier to understand than the rest?


For me, it was easier than the rest. When I said recording 1 and 3, it is a rough estimation. It might be his normal reading voice. I feel like you have no dialect. My teacher has a little bit in his throat (Schleim) like someone with a dialect usually have. You do not have it. I have heard old German ladies with dialects so their intonation sounds a little bit different.

Natives with Standard German sounds like @1.30. My teacher does not sound like this when dictating. He sounds to have something similar to @ 2.32 , do you detect something in her throat when she is reading "Können Sie vielleicht mal zur Seite gehen, ich kann doch nicht fliegen" barring excitement part as he is reading a serious text. There is something in her throat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cMRhmBfAQY

He dictates texts like this for example. Definitely no fairytales.
Listening_Transcription.JPG


To me this does look like a text used for reading comprehension followed by an apparatus of questions/tasks .
0 x

Tom
White Belt
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:01 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (intermediate)
x 40

Re: The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

Postby Tom » Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:00 am

Gaoling97 wrote:I can absolutely believe that somebody who literally does nothing but watch TV would not make it very far, as was the case of that linguistics researcher who studied French for 1700 hours with nothing but TV with no subtitles...and could not even pass B1.


Would you happen to have a link to something about this case? I'm interested to read more about it.
0 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kraut, tastyonions and 2 guests