The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

[tractor]

Comprehensible Input(CI) Review 600 hours in review so far!
https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearni ... in_review/

He /// an online teacher/// told me he was speaking at about B1-B2 level. However was disappointed with my speaking skills and told me to come back at 600 hours. Im not going to right now because my speaking still sucks balls. Dreaming Spanish they want you speaking to others at 800 hours. Im going to wait until then.

the line before that quote made me laugh:

"So I specifically found a CI tutor on one of the popular tutor sites at about 500 hours. I had no idea how to f*cking talk.."

I’ve been going to the gym watching other people lifting heavy weights for two hours a day. At about 500 hours, I hired a personal trainer. I had no idea how to f***ing lift weights… My personal trainer was disappointed with my weight lifting skills and told me me to come back at 600 hours. I know I’ll be ready to lift weights at 1000 hours.

[Cavesa]

Sorry, overlooked this response very worth responding to further:

Agreed. They expect error-free sentences in writing with 99% accurate grammar and fewer spelling mistakes. So what do you reckon how much active listening, active reading, active speaking, and active writing should be a part of my daily language learning routine considering the fact that not everything is picked up with passing listening and extensive reading as you have just said above?

It's not true they expect error-free sentences. Usually, the grading grid mentions whether there are many mistakes, or a few, whether the grammar is adequately complex for the level, vocab adequately rich, and so on. It is not a binary jugement perfect/not perfect.

I am not sure what you mean by "active". Like "intensive reading and listening"? Those are the commonly used terms. I actually never did much intensive reading or intensive listening before my English C1, French C2, or even Italian C1.

What I recommend to most people is just grabbing a grammar book, doing all the exercises, to improve their use and understanding of the grammar. It can really make your writing and speaking make a much better impression and save you some points.

I cannot recommend "active listening" because I simply don't know what you mean (perhaps the contrary to some people just putting on background and not really listening, or trying to learn in their sleep ) and because I do not really do much Intensive listening. i am trying that for the first time seriously in German and I have yet to take a C1 exam in that language.

The thing is, these language schools, for example, in Germany focus on teaching only formal German. And they need to issue certificates for foreign students to get admission into a German university. So everything is tailored around that goal.
The listening exam is structured in a way that students have to locate key answers and have to write them down at the same time(just like in a typical lecture at the university) while listening to speakers. However, in reality, 9 out of 10 natives speak informal German. Use informal expressions. You have to listen for understanding the gist of the message. I go to a local pharmacy and understand the people working there with no issues. I follow Radio announcements played on trains with no issues. I am not under pressure to locate correct answers and write them down at the same time focus on the next set of questions.

for example, a question requires an answer by writing down " four keywords" I mean 2 keywords I can understand the logic but 4 keywords how on Earth...? and the interlocutor keeps speaking there was no pause/time allocation for writing down answers...it is all done in one go, I mean that is not possible without missing information?

Ah, no clue which exams requires stuff like that. The Goethe Zertifikat doesn't. So, not sure how to answer your question. If you need that exam in particular, then unfortunately you need to train that particular skill. It might have a lot to do with the exam being for university students, so perhaps they are trying to test your studying skills in German.

Yes, real life comprehension is in many ways more important. But a lot of people make the mistake of considering some situations as higher level, than they are, or simply not accepting the fact that the exam is not meant to cover all areas of life.

Yes, I have not listened to formal stuff as that is not my immediate need. I am not going to study for a german degree taught in German. I mainly focused on informal sources of input.

Listening to normal stuff (mainly tv shows) got me to several language exams with listening always been my strong point. But yes, even I can make some mistake in questions that are more about telepathy "what did the examiner want me to do as an interpretation of the question".

The teacher said they would cover grammar concepts 50% at A2, 30% At B1, and 20% at B2. There is no grammar at C1.

That's why I was taking these classes to brush up on all these grammar concepts in a systematic way. It was a good decision for me. It indirectly helped me a lot with my reading. The quality of absorbing the language has increased by many folds. I derived whatever benefits I wanted to derive from attending such classes.

There is actually a lot of grammar at C1. Majority is not new, it is revisiting old stuff and improving your skills in that area, understanding them better, and using them to more nuance. If any teacher says it like this "there is no grammar at C1", they are an idiot. If they mean just no active explaining, then it is just a way to do things.

I am glad you found a good class fitting your needs. I insist that a learner can achieve the same result with just a grammar workbook at home. But in general, improving one's grammar understanding and use helps a lot.

After listening to 100 audiobooks I have clearly noticed that TV shows meant for natives are accessible to me without subtitles which was not the case before. I could easily follow along. Here someone posted live streaming links for world cup matches for soccer. I could follow LIVE commentary at 80-85% understanding with no issues.

100 audiobooks are a wonderful investment in your listening skills. We all should do such huge amounts of listening. Your results are excellent, congratulations!

Most immersion input comes from informal inputs rather than from formal inputs this is something I need to work on.
Also, I need to do more active listening as well where I should make sure I can understand each and every word. So need to work with transcripts as well.

Yes, doing Intensive listening (as that is what you describe with the word "active") can really help in some ways, I hope to read some notes about your progress in a log, as I could really do with inspiration in this area.

A couple of days ago I was at a local immigration office to submit my documents for renewing my student visa. The lady started with a serious face but after speaking to me in full-fledged German for 10 minutes. She asked me if I took a German course in Germany. She gained two liters of blood on her face. She all smiled at the end of our conversation.

I am definitely understanding local natives. However, it is nothing like locating keywords/answers for certain questions. It is a different kind of listening experience.

Congratulations, that is a lot of success!

And it is also interesting. In my case, speaking normal French made no difference in Belgium (their bureaucrats seem to hate everybody). In Switzerland, it makes no difference either apparently. You are expected to speak the local language, which is the right thing. I have ambivalent feelings on this, whether I want people in such situations to admire my French In general I don't, but sometimes a tiny little advantage here or there would be nice.

Locating keywords is a study skill and important for your exam. It has little to do with the real life.

[rowanexer]

Wow, I had to comment after skim reading through the article that was posted earlier on in the thread.

The author spent 1500 hours watching French TV without dictionaries, any formal study, reading, writing or speaking. He had a silent period of 8 months where he didn't speak at all. His hypothesis was that the delaying speaking would result in a native accent:

I believed that if speech production in the second language was delayed until the aforementioned comprehension level had been reached, any person capable of speaking would rapidly develop the ability to speak the L2 as though they were an L1 speaker, provided that extensive speaking opportunities for practice were available.

After 8 months of immersion he went to France to stay for 5 months to test out his French.

There's no doubt that when I speak French I sound Australian. Heaps of French people have noticed I have an accent and it's easily noticeable to me.

I realised the difference between the sounds stored in my memory and the ones that I had processed frequently were different. One example of this is the sound that means ‘water’ in French. When I first learned this word from a Caillou episode, I thought the sound was ‘oo’, and that’s what I always said. It was pointed out to me that the actual sound is more like ‘oh’. It took me a few weeks to change my
pronunciation, but it came out right most of the time after that.

It seemed to take him a long time to understand really basic grammar, e.g. 102 days before he started to figure out how to construct the negative in French.

I'm starting to understand negatives. There is often an N sound prior to the verb and followed by PA. E.g. ZHE NE SAY PAY=I don't know. But if it’s not a verb, [but instead] an adjective, the NE sound isn't there, only PA. E.g. SE PA FASEEL= It’s not easy…

Anyway, despite all this he doesn't seem too discouraged in the immersion theory, saying that he still believes speaking too soon in French would have resulted in fossilisation. He also says he reached better speaking abilities in French compared to his abilities in Korean after 3.5 years living in South Korean and Chinese after 2 years living in China. He suggests an alternative high school program where all kids do is watch cartoons in the foreign language.

I'm honestly, just really baffled by this whole thing. It seems like a huge amount of effort for not particularly great results. The whole schtick with the immersion approach is how effortless and natural it is, and how you'll end up in a much better position than "traditional" education but I'm not seeing it here at all.

[Cainntear]

Anyway, despite all this he doesn't seem too discouraged in the immersion theory, saying that he still believes speaking too soon in French would have resulted in fossilisation. He also says he reached better speaking abilities in French compared to his abilities in Korean after 3.5 years living in South Korean and Chinese after 2 years living in China. He suggests an alternative high school program where all kids do is watch cartoons in the foreign language.

Extra! Extra! Read all about it! English speaker finds French easier to learn that Korean or Chinese! More news at 11!

I'm honestly, just really baffled by this whole thing. It seems like a huge amount of effort for not particularly great results. The whole schtick with the immersion approach is how effortless and natural it is, and how you'll end up in a much better position than "traditional" education but I'm not seeing it here at all.

Yeah, he's invested in it because his ego won't let him see the time as wasted -- it must be the right thing he did... it simply must.

[leosmith]

I'm honestly, just really baffled by this whole thing. It seems like a huge amount of effort for not particularly great results. The whole schtick with the immersion approach is how effortless and natural it is, and how you'll end up in a much better position than "traditional" education but I'm not seeing it here at all.

Bingo - I've read a lot of articles/posts on delayed production, mainly because Thai was my 4th language (birth language of ALG) and I started Mandarin when this method was undergoing a popularity surge. All results underwhelmed me; none of the desired results seemed to be achieved. Has anyone ever come across a study that shows early production leads to poor fossilized pronunciation?

South Korean

You can just say "Korean"; very little difference in the language between north and south.

[rowanexer]

So I found another account of someone trying to learn a language through the ALG method. This guy watched 2000 hours of Mandarin TV dramas without looking any words up and without doing any active study or speaking. He believed this would get him to a native level in 2-3 years. Here's a quote with his opinion on "traditional" language learning:

I definitely feel that translation is a bad bad thing. Looking up words in a bilingual dictionary is bad. Flashcards are bad. Textbooks are bad. Teachers who speak your language are bad. Study is bad. Being in a hurry is bad. It's all bad bad bad. Speaking early is definitely bad. Slowly spoken language learning material is bad. Grammar is bad.

Anyway, the unusual thing is that he actually posted a video of his very first conversation in Mandarin.

https://natural-language-acquisition.bl ... e.html?m=0

I don't speak Mandarin but I'm feeling a lot of second hand embarrassment from the video. There seem to be long stretches where he cannot understand what the other speaker is saying, even when they speak super slowly.

Anyway, there was not many posts after this one of further progress so I can assume it didn't turn into a success story after all.

[Le Baron]

He believed this would get him to a native level in 2-3 years. Here's a quote with his opinion on "traditional" language learning:

And I'd have to wonder if it is actually 'his' opinion or just blindly sticking to the line propagated by the ideology? He says 'I feel that...' Pal, I'd want to think that you almost 'know', otherwise it's an opinion with no grounds.

The obvious glaring flaw in this is the concept of not being able to know what you don't know; and not being able to correct when you can't even see errors. It's so obvious that I'd have to suspect any person not recognising it as a bit dim. Pretty much everyone on this forum knows that the previous fellow learning 'eau' as 'oo' could have solved his problem in minutes (seconds even!), even just by going to Google translate and listening to the output. This drivel of not wanting to 'fossilise' things just ends up with an accumulation of errors he's ended up having to slowly go through and correct. And in fact it isn't working because rather than the listening supplying the solutions he's had to rely upon people noticing and TUTORING him!

This is all a poison to language learning. And the Mandarin-learning fellow is just a Dunning-Kruger candidate.

[leosmith]

I don't speak Mandarin but I'm feeling a lot of second hand embarrassment from the video.

It is merited. His Mandarin is really bad, but considering what he did, it's not surprising. He should have at least done a beginner's course after all that listening, so that he wouldn't be torturing his teacher so brutally. His pronunciation is not bad, but not fantastic either. As a learner, I hate starting to converse when I'm this bad. But some people apparently don't mind (Benny Lewis comes to mind).

[lingohot]

I don't speak Mandarin but I'm feeling a lot of second hand embarrassment from the video. There seem to be long stretches where he cannot understand what the other speaker is saying, even when they speak super slowly.

Agreed, but I am still surprised that he does understand anything at all and is able to produce something that sounds like phrases after just having listened without any further studying. Of course this "method" is a not a method, but a waste of time – seeing that the video is from 2011, I remember the idea was quite popular in the "language learning community" on the internet back then. For instance, I remember a guy who was very keen on learning Japanese who tried that "method" first - 2 years or so of pure listening all day every day - to no avail, he ended up understanding as little as before his experiment, then he switched methods.

I think it's a misinterpretation of Khatzumoto's All Japanese All The Time where he recommends amongst others lots of listening in every spare minute and a "silent period" where you don't speak in the beginning but also what he called "sentence mining" and what involves looking up words and grammar (first in a bilingual dictionary, then in a monolingual dictionary, which he found better, because it reinforces immersion even more – I think the latter has led to the misinterpretation that "translating is bad" and you should just immerse in the language like a baby, or something) and b) Krashen's "comprehensible input" method where someone e.g. says "this is my mouth" and points to his mouth and you just sit there in a relaxed state (very important) and listen to it and after a while you're able to have political debates in the target language.

The base of this attempt is of course the unwillingness to study "boring stuff" such as grammar and the desire to do "fun stuff" such as TV only and to learn the language effortlessly and later come out as a miracle ("native level") and surprise people.