The CEFR Levels and Immersion Learners

[Gaoling97]

I can absolutely believe that somebody who literally does nothing but watch TV would not make it very far, as was the case of that linguistics researcher who studied French for 1700 hours with nothing but TV with no subtitles...and could not even pass B1.

Would you happen to have a link to something about this case? I'm interested to read more about it.

Paper here: https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/U ... thesis.pdf

I fully admit that I might not be remembering the details exactly (I said 1700 hours earlier?) and it may be more complicated than that, but the author says that in the first stage, they watched 1300 hours of TV with no subtitles, dictionaries, textbooks, teachers, or French speaking.

They also mention on page 62 of the PDF that they took a year of French in eighth grade and got an A, but don't remember more than a handful of phrases.

Then, on page 214, you can see the results of their first B1 exam, where they received 32% on listening, 92% on reading (surprisingly high?), 42% on writing, and 16% on speaking, or 45.5% overall.

[jeff_lindqvist]

I fully admit that I might not be remembering the details exactly (I said 1700 hours earlier?) and it may be more complicated than that, but the author says that in the first stage, they watched 1300 hours of TV with no subtitles, dictionaries, textbooks, teachers, or French speaking.

Somewhere in the world, there's someone who thinks that they didn't watch enough.

[Le Baron]

I fully admit that I might not be remembering the details exactly (I said 1700 hours earlier?) and it may be more complicated than that, but the author says that in the first stage, they watched 1300 hours of TV with no subtitles, dictionaries, textbooks, teachers, or French speaking.

Somewhere in the world, there's someone who thinks that they didn't watch enough.

This is funny, but also a deeper remark than people might imagine. What gets lost in the mere 'input thesis' is the idea that there isn't an auto-mechanism for transforming input into working knowledge. This is the massive Achilles heel and it stems from an incomplete appreciation of immersion and all factors around it.
These people 'in the TL country' aren't just "listening-reading" they are most often being forced to develop the conversion from input into working knowledge. With all the thinking about it and self-talk and mental propositions for potential conversations based upon models right in front of them. The stuff dismissed as 'active learning', but which takes place as a sort of mental arithmetic for language acquisition and use.

I'm next to certain that people either fail miserably (as above) or spend years and years because they rely on 'input/immersion' without bothering to actually transform this. 'Build it and they will come...' Okay, sure.

[german2k01]

I'm next to certain that people either fail miserably (as above) or spend years and years because they rely on 'input/immersion' without bothering to actually transform this. 'Build it and they will come...' Okay, sure.

How do you transform it? I have been in the class setting for two months. I observed several students in the class speaking German. It was a non-stress environment. One more thing I have done prior to joining the class was thousands of hours of listening so I had a clear mental image of how spoken German sounded and our teacher was a real model present in the class. Over the course of two months, the only thing I have come to the conclusion of is that these students were fighting with the language not building anything so to speak. The way language classes were structured they always spoke or asked about the mechanics of the language. Not any meaningful situations that they may come across in real life. Additionally., they struggled a lot. They internalized a lot of sounds from their native languages by building this auto-mechanism along the way.

Maybe conversations with native tutors over italki might be a better alternative solution for developing this auto-mechanism? In my opinion, language classes do not cut it unless they change their business model to a language learning model. Too much grammar teaching, sure, it is essential to comprehend a language but there is not much time left for developing communication skills. Out of 4 hours . 30 minutes break then 3 hours of grammar teaching and doing drills. And 30 minutes are dedicated to getting some sort of listening done.

[Le Baron]

We've been through all this before. After a certain amount of input and familiarisation if you don't just go out and use it, it won't develop. That's it really. I'm baffled as to what the issue is supposed to be, because if you say you can understand your teacher 99% you ought to leave the class and save any potential future payments, because you know German now. Right? If anyone here said they could understand their TL interlocutor 99% and, I assume, respond to them, they're functional.

It's hard to know what it is people want. Are you waiting to be able to speak and sound like a German person and this will be the point of success? It's not going to happen.

Maybe I'm wrong about all this, advise me.

[german2k01]

It's hard to know what it is people want. Are you waiting to be able to speak and sound like a German person and this will be the point of success? It's not going to happen.

For example, working fluency this is what I want. When I go to a bookstore whatever information I need to ask and convey I should not think twice if my sentence comes out right or wrong. It should come off the bat and the other person should understand it right away. When I go to a library and need to ask for specific information from a receptionist about a book I should ask for it spontaneously and maintain the further conversation for a while without the other person guessing what I am trying to convey.

Sounding like a German person is not my end goal. That is not possible. I did not go to a German school as a kid and did not grow up in a German household. I can not simulate such an environment. Therefore, this is not what I want.

In my current stage of language stage, I can handle some situations very well even to my surprise. In some situations, seems like my subconscious mind has not either acquired relevant vocabulary or grammar structure to express what exactly I want to express. When I try a forced conscious way of expressing it, the wrong grammar structure comes out and it ends up like nonsensical crap. Esp in a face-to-face conversation.

[Le Baron]

For example, working fluency this is what I want. When I go to a bookstore whatever information I need to ask and convey I should not think twice if my sentence comes out right or wrong. It should come off the bat and the other person should understand it right away. When I go to a library and need to ask for specific information from a receptionist about a book I should ask for it spontaneously and maintain the further conversation for a while without the other person guessing what I am trying to convey.
....
In my current stage of language stage, I can handle some situations very well even to my surprise. In some situations, seems like my subconscious mind has not either acquired relevant vocabulary or grammar structure to express what exactly I want to express. When I try a forced conscious way of expressing it, the wrong grammar structure comes out and it ends up like nonsensical crap. Esp in a face-to-face conversation.

Okay, that's reasonable. The boring answer is: time. Lots of occasions of building these sentences on-the-fly will hone this skill. Don't put all the work onto yourself though. You can get people to feed you half of the vocabulary and phrases you'll need in these situations as they suggest and ask you questions in return. I don't know that there is any foolproof solution to the sometime pain of it not going entirely to plan. Like when someone uses a word/phrase you can't understand, you have to either decide to skip over it or ask for clarification. It's worth it.

Don't undervalue the use of set 'island' phrases for these sorts of situations. because there's no sense if making up florid sentences for simple questions. Every successful navigation just spurs you on for more. Makes you feel less self-conscious or feeling 'judged'. By now you must have a lot of vocabulary etc to draw upon, it's just about having the situation where it can be drawn upon and words will come to mind as you get more relaxed and fluent.

Whether you're still attending classes or not or a couple of years down the line, it's a time thing.

[Tom]

I can absolutely believe that somebody who literally does nothing but watch TV would not make it very far, as was the case of that linguistics researcher who studied French for 1700 hours with nothing but TV with no subtitles...and could not even pass B1.

Would you happen to have a link to something about this case? I'm interested to read more about it.

Paper here: https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/U ... thesis.pdf

I fully admit that I might not be remembering the details exactly (I said 1700 hours earlier?) and it may be more complicated than that, but the author says that in the first stage, they watched 1300 hours of TV with no subtitles, dictionaries, textbooks, teachers, or French speaking.

They also mention on page 62 of the PDF that they took a year of French in eighth grade and got an A, but don't remember more than a handful of phrases.

Then, on page 214, you can see the results of their first B1 exam, where they received 32% on listening, 92% on reading (surprisingly high?), 42% on writing, and 16% on speaking, or 45.5% overall.

Thanks so much. Very interesting!

[Saim]

I'm next to certain that people either fail miserably (as above) or spend years and years because they rely on 'input/immersion' without bothering to actually transform this. 'Build it and they will come...' Okay, sure.

How do you transform it?

You need to establish a feedback loop where you go out and use the language to interact with people, then go back to your input and try to absorb as much as you can, memorise some words and expressions, and then circle back to interaction. You can go a long way with an input-heavy approach, but there there's the risk of constantly consuming for the "gist" of things and not getting into deeper levels of comprehension and not noticing what you're missing, so you need to engage in different forms of deliberate practice (especially vocabulary just because there's so much of it) and interaction to advance past a certain point.

Also, don't be afraid of asking people how to say things or what words mean, or to look up words you might need before getting into interactions (if it's something concrete like needing to borrow a book or get your bike fixed or whatever). The other day I got my bike fixed and the mechanic used the word Zahnkranz; I asked him to clarify and he lit up and showed me what it was, and even explained why the element Kranz is in there. (This isn't an amazing example because sprocket is far from a useful word, but it was a fun interaction regardless: I elicited more language out of the native and also got to reinforce the element Kranz which I had learnt in my flashcards the week before).

When it comes to opportunities for output, ideally you would just have friends who are constantly talking to you in the target language, but it can be hard to socialise before you're in the C band so I'd suggest doing 1-1 tutoring (ideally with some correction), with a view of eventually establishing a German-speaking social life so that the feedback loop becomes self-sufficient.

[german2k01]

You need to establish a feedback loop where you go out and use the language to interact with people, then go back to your input and try to absorb as much as you can, memorise some words and expressions, and then circle back to interaction. You can go a long way with an input-heavy approach, but there there's the risk of constantly consuming for the "gist" of things and not getting into deeper levels of comprehension and not noticing what you're missing, so you need to engage in different forms of deliberate practice (especially vocabulary just because there's so much of it) and interaction to advance past a certain point.

You made very good points. At the end of the day, interaction is necessary, and just as you said, is an important cog to identify what I am missing from my input.

Today I had a casual talk with an old lady in the washing area in my student hostel. I was casually engaged with her in backbiting about our landlord. I was talking about how she was using an old nonfunctional dryer machine just to save more money and to make a trip to Canada and the USA more so in a technology-driven country like Germany.(It was my way of backbiting). There was a particular word that I was missing to describe her. I was looking for it in a dictionary installed on my phone, and at the same time, the lady had already filled in the missing word. "Sie ist sparsam". She is frugal. Therefore, today I added a new word to my active vocabulary "sparsam".

I think that's what Le Baron has been trying to covey me for eternity. To go out and do things even though the language may not come out the way it should be, but in the end, someone might fill it in for me or I may consult an online resource for it later on.