Mistake correction - useless?

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acorngalaxy
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Mistake correction - useless?

Postby acorngalaxy » Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:38 am

https://youtu.be/EOd4oY7gOdE

Thoughts on this video?
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Kullman
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby Kullman » Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:27 pm

I don't know about english, but seeing the difficulties of most spanish learners with subjects like genders, I think mistake correction is really useful, as you learning that from a dictionary is quite difficult (and boring as hell).
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby luke » Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:33 pm

He's got good points.

This is an interesting video too:


So reading is important.

And this one is also interesting:


Based on these three videos, it seems he does a summary towards the end. I wouldn't be surprised if his book was well written.
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby Doitsujin » Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:55 pm

IMHO, it's an overgeneralization. People learn languages for all kinds of reasons and often aim for vastly different skill levels. Not everyone wants to or needs to achieve near-native fluency. While it can be counter-productive to point out minor mistakes to beginners, not pointing out major mistakes may lead to fossilized errors that might be difficult to fix later on.
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby Sae » Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:20 am

I've seen this guy's videos before and I can't say I am a fan.

I find he loves to overgeneralise and make absolute statements when they are not absolute. And IMO, that's kind of rubs off as disingenuous or at least, makes his expertise harder to trust, because actually, there's different types of learners and different methods suit people differently. His approach is not how I best learn, I find I retain better by doing than by studying and exposure, studying and exposure is important and still a part of the process and it's still useful, because I feel like I need to understand certain pieces first, but my neurons connect better when I get a feel for how things work and a part of that is being told they don't work together when they don't, that feedback is useful. And it's also why I like to learn grammar early on, because it gives me a framework to experiment with when I'm feeling experimental or trying to use new words in different ways.

And a part of "learning by doing" is learning from your mistakes. And his approach would mean, I'd be baking my language in the oven for a long time before I get to go out and use it, because his argument is "you've not studied it enough" or "not spent enough time with it" or "you're being made to speak too early". Maybe that's what works better for him, but it's not universal. And some people may need to use the language earlier.

But there are good ways and bad ways of correcting mistakes. And IMO how nitpicky you are should depend on the skill level of the learner. And I find I retain information through mistakes I've made, especially if we're able to have a laugh and joke about them afterwards. And I am finding it more and more frequent that I am correcting my own mistakes, because now through using it, I've got a feel for how pieces fit together.

And TBH, if I took his advice, I'd probably have given up Vietnamese by now.
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby tractor » Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:18 am

Yet another guy making lengthy Youtube videos claiming that he knows the one and only method for learning foreign languages…
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby tiia » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:00 am

I partly agree with the content of the first video posted here, and I partly don't.
I do agree when it comes to the issue that isolated mistake correction is often not useful. At least if is means that there are gaps in understanding a underlying concept. Then the correction should lead to study this particular concept more and not just correcting an isolated mistake. But this depends on the situation and on how well the teacher knows the abilities and the previous studies of the student. Finding and correcting reoccuring mistakes is important. Correcting every single one may not.

He also mentions that mistakes could mean that the student is expressing something beyond their level. So therefore mistakes are a sign of a lack of knowledge. It's something I have seen when people start to learn Finnish, simply because when someone has not yet gotten to know all the cases, they may try to use a wrong one. So I don't see any issue with that assumption.

However, I do not agree anymore when he claims that this is why all the language schools and classes don't work. In another video he even claims that no one has ever become fluent due to language classes. (I have learned English almost exclusively in a classroom setting in school and ended up being a fluent speaker. So do I not exist?)
As others already pointed out, he is making very strong generalisations. He's trying to give the impression of someone who knows it all, and especially knowing the best and only method to learn English or any other language. And of course he tries to sell his book.
Obviously he prefers an input heavy method to learn languages. Haven't heard him mentioning the explicit learning of grammar at all. Maybe in English that is not quite as important as in some other languages, but from my point of view in some other languages it actually is.

Also I have to add, that mistake correction can make sense, if someone is already at a higher level or using the language for a longer time, because they may simply overhear that a native says something slightly differently. Since the person will already be understood, they won't notice they said something wrong. I mean the brain is a wonderful organ and it tries to make everything as effective as possible. So if the brain once understands speech in a language (almost) perfectly it may not care too much about the small differences in listening vs speaking oneself. (I think there was some study about this. It was probably mentioned here in this forum.)

So to answer the question in the title: It depends.
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby german2k01 » Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:22 pm

Yes, it is useless. Only more exposure to the language will override such mistakes.

I am currently attending a formal course in German aimed at the B1 level. Students study grammar rules. They solve exercises in the class itself and later on as regular homework. In the next class, the teacher goes through solutions for those exercises. Even after all of this, students still have issues with grammar when writing an essay as part of the exam. Feedback by teacher: the major problem in German these students have is all related to weak grammar. However, 80% of the class time is spent on teaching and solving grammar rules. Do you see the point Vladimir is trying to make?

You can not blame students as they do not read extensively throughout the class. The teacher told students the purpose of his class was to teach grammar rules and outside the class, it is the duty of students to read different material in German. He can not do hand-holding. At least this teacher is good enough to encourage students to read materials in the language outside the class.

The conclusion is, the conscious study of grammar rules does not necessarily lead students to acquire the language correctly on itself. In the end, more language exposure to the target language is needed. As you can see from the above-mentioned example, no amount of feedback by the teacher is preventing students from making the same grammar mistakes.

Additionally, these students need a certificate for work, admission to the university, and so on. Language classes are not bad at all if your goal is to grab grammar concepts as quickly as possible in a disciplined manner then such language classes have served their purpose. I am attending such language classes because I am learning grammar in a very disciplined manner as the teacher is leading the way and it is indirectly helping me with my reading and listening. The disciplined factor has won me over attending such classes.

Sure I can consult a good grammar book, but then I may not be disciplined at all.

I disagree with him when he says that language schools are not good at all. It depends on your expectations. If you are there to learn grammar concepts in a disciplined manner, then they are doing their job. But if you think you can be a fluent speaker in a classroom setting then it is a pipedream.
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:57 pm

That fellow, like so many, doesn't understand how (good) classes work. There are many beneficial side-effects. Even when the class is there altogether, going through some tiresome point of grammar, it very often isn't that grammar point which is of most use, but the things going on around it. The fact the teacher is explaining it in the TL, the complaints, amusement, questions and discussion among the students and teacher regarding this grammar and how tiresome it is. The going off at a tangent. This is 'exposure' and practise and at a level suitable to the class.

Isn't it best to get all that and also the boring, but sometimes necessary grammar exposition as the thing to hang all this onto?
Last edited by Le Baron on Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mistake correction - useless?

Postby Iversen » Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:59 pm

The really good corrections are those that points out recurring and pervasive errors. Corrections of isolated errors are not totally wasted, but the time could sometimes have been better used on telling people something new (and correctly from the start).
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