Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
LupCenușiu
Yellow Belt
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Languages: RO (educated sarcastic native) EN (emulating fluency) GE, FR(various degrees of incompetency)
x 176

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby LupCenușiu » Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:20 pm

verdastelo wrote:
The native language of the majority is Estonian and can be taught as a subject. Neighboring Finland shows the way. From what I've heard, everyone studies Finnish and Swedish in Finland. Estonia can adopt a similar approach. Russians can study in Russian schools and learn Estonian while Estonians can study in Estonian schools and learn Russian. Harmonious!


Yes. Because Sweden in relation to Finland is anything like Russia in relation to Baltics. As I said, things are more specific than one would like to consider. Idealistic feet will blister in the boots of reality, on long roads.

However, strictly as a personal opinion. Given our cultural backgrounds, and I'd go ahead and assume certain divergent politic positions as well, pursuing the conversation with emphasis on these particularities would hardly lead to a prosperous and constructive development of this topic. So, probably is for the greater good to stick mostly to linguistic aspects.
5 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23122
Contact:

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby rdearman » Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:28 pm

verdastelo wrote:As for funding, I think that denying a quarter of your population to learn in the language, they feel comfortable in, is more expensive than offering translation. By imposing the language of the majority on a minority, you are merely stunting the development of your own country.

You'll need to explain the economic value to me here. I'm saying that in order to provide these services, the government would need to increase taxes by X amount. Let's just for argument’s sake pick a number out of the air and say the tax increase required is 25% increase in taxes across the board to provide these services. Please detail for me how this will provide a +25% growth in GDP?

Because another aspect of human nature is WIIIFM (What is in it for me?) Why would the majority accept a huge tax increase with no immediate and perceivable benefit? How would this idealistic government sell this idea to the masses?
3 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

User avatar
AroAro
Green Belt
Posts: 355
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:57 pm
Languages: • Native - Polish
• Certified - C1: French, Italian, Romanian; B2: English, German
• Estimate - B2: Russian; B1: Bulgarian
• Learning - Czech, Hebrew
• Dabbled in - eo, la, uk, sw, lt, oc
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... d80b60a5e9
x 1792

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby AroAro » Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:34 pm

verdastelo wrote:The native language of the majority is Estonian and can be taught as a subject. Neighboring Finland shows the way. From what I've heard, everyone studies Finnish and Swedish in Finland. Estonia can adopt a similar approach. Russians can study in Russian schools and learn Estonian while Estonians can study in Estonian schools and learn Russian. Harmonious!


I'm not an expert on Estonian inner matters but comparing the situation of Swedish language in Finland and Russian language in Estonia is probably not correct, especially today. It's not a coincidence that ALL ex-Soviet republics in Eastern Europe deprived Russian language of the (co)official status (except for Belarus, which is telling). But it's a political topic, so...
7 x
corrections are welcome

Svanderov
White Belt
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:27 am
Languages: Estonian (N), English (C2), French (beginner), Russian (beginner)
x 53

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby Svanderov » Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:45 pm

verdastelo wrote:
Svanderov wrote:...terribly behaving russian people who refuse to learn our language...


I think that everyone who lives in Estonia should be an Estonian, irrespective of their ethnicity, language, religion, and other identity markers of identity. So if more than 20% of Estonia's population (2021 Census) speaks Russian at home, then Russian should be a co-official language in Estonia, if not on par with Estonian because of nationalistic pride, then at least a language in which students can get an education and citizens can talk with the government. Akin to Swedish in Finland; Manipuri, Punjabi or Bengali in India; or French in Switzerland.

I cannot imagine an India where everyone is forced to learn Hindi, Bengali, or Tamil. So I find it hard to imagine why Estonian should be imposed on Russians and why cannot the country be bilingual where each citizen can get an education and benefit from government services in a language of his choice: Russian or Estonian. No one should be discriminated against because their grandparents or parents chose to live in Estonia.


We have treated the Russians with plenty of respect in the past and given them plenty of leeway. There are NUMEROUS schools here where students can get an education in Russian, for example.

What did we get in return? Russians saying that Estonia is a suburb of St. Petersburg; that we are peasants; that they can do whatever they want here.

Making russian one of our co-official languages is the last thing on our mind.
9 x

User avatar
verdastelo
Orange Belt
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:20 pm
Languages: Punjabi (N), Hindi-Urdu (near-native), English (C1+), Russian (B1+), French (A2+), Chinese (A1+), Kannada (A0+)
x 740

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby verdastelo » Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:00 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:As I said, things are more specific than one would like to consider. Idealistic feet will blister in the boots of reality, on long roads... So, probably is for the greater good to stick mostly to linguistic aspects.


It's an established fact in linguistics that children should get an education in their mother tongue.

When you are in a country which is de facto bilingual, the rational approach is to accept that and make life easier for the citizens, irrespective for their mother tongue.

The idealistic position is to ban the language of the minority because the grandfather of a person who speaks the same language as my neighbor called my grandfather names a few decades ago.

rdearman wrote:You'll need to explain the economic value to me here. I'm saying that in order to provide these services, the government would need to increase taxes by X amount. Let's just for argument’s sake pick a number out of the air and say the tax increase required is 25% increase in taxes across the board to provide these services. Please detail for me how this will provide a +25% growth in GDP?

Because another aspect of human nature is WIIIFM (What is in it for me?) Why would the majority accept a huge tax increase with no immediate and perceivable benefit? How would this idealistic government sell this idea to the masses?


There are economic and societal benefits.

Let's start with economic benefits with a quote from a Russian-speaking Estonian: "teaching Russian-speaking children in a non-native language will provide them with sufficient knowledge and skills for their further education or successful employment." (Source: Estonian court upholds ban on teaching in Russian at municipal schools.)

Acquiring a skill is hard. In a foreign language, it's harder. When you prevent 20-25% of your population from acquiring skills in their mother tongue, you are actually reducing their overall skillset and your own government revenues. Instead of thinking how to construct a while-loop, an eighth-grader will probably spend half his time thinking what's a while-loop in Estonian. An economist can quantify the growth that you can get by adding 20-25% more people to your workforce.

As to WIIIFM, you get a country where everyone feels belonged instead of a country where the majority oppresses the minority and both hate each other. If a quarter of the population can neither study in its mother tongue nor access government services in their language, then it's a recipe for disaster.

Svanderov wrote:We have treated the Russians with plenty of respect in the past and given them plenty of leeway. There are NUMEROUS schools here where students can get an education in Russian, for example.


Russians who were born in Estonia have as much of a right to live in their country as Estonians. One of those rights includes the ability to use one's mother tongue in schools. But it seems Estonia has other plans. "Our understanding definitely is that in the future we will undoubtedly reach the point where there are no Russian-language schools in Estonia," Estonian member of parliament Urmas Reinsalu. (Source: Estonia Moves to End Russian-Medium Schools).
2 x
The life of man is but a succession of vain hopes and groundless fears. — Monte(s)quieu

User avatar
LupCenușiu
Yellow Belt
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Languages: RO (educated sarcastic native) EN (emulating fluency) GE, FR(various degrees of incompetency)
x 176

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby LupCenușiu » Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:17 pm

verdastelo wrote:
When you are in a country which is de facto bilingual, the rational approach is to accept that and make life easier for the citizens, irrespective for their mother tongue.

The idealistic position is to ban the language of the minority because the grandfather of a person who speaks the same language as my neighbor called my grandfather names a few decades ago.


As I said, things get nuanced when language is used as a pretext for political pressure. Estonia is not bilingual de facto, and Russian modus operandi is not old history. Is not surprisingly for someone with your cultural background to embrace your support for certain decisions, hardly surprising for someone with mine to do exactly the opposite, I reiterate that pedaling further on certain ideas promoted extensively in certain media I'm quite familiar with is a dead end road. And the topic will likely go to chill with Esperanto topics.

verdastelo wrote:
Svanderov wrote:We have treated the Russians with plenty of respect in the past and given them plenty of leeway. There are NUMEROUS schools here where students can get an education in Russian, for example.


Russians who were born in Estonia have as much of a right to live in their country as Estonians. One of those rights includes the ability to use one's mother tongue in schools. But it seems Estonia has other plans. "Our understanding definitely is that in the future we will undoubtedly reach the point where there are no Russian-language schools in Estonia," Estonian member of parliament Urmas Reinsalu. (Source: Estonia Moves to End Russian-Medium Schools).


This is not the topic to explain how the Soviet Union used mass population dislocation and colonizing new areas to maintain control. Nor how language and minority groups were all but strings to pull even after 1991. You tread on unfamiliar grounds or you try to push a certain agenda, either way this won't develop in any constructive way.
4 x

Svanderov
White Belt
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:27 am
Languages: Estonian (N), English (C2), French (beginner), Russian (beginner)
x 53

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby Svanderov » Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:17 pm

verdastelo wrote:
LupCenușiu wrote:As I said, things are more specific than one would like to consider. Idealistic feet will blister in the boots of reality, on long roads... So, probably is for the greater good to stick mostly to linguistic aspects.


It's an established fact in linguistics that children should get an education in their mother tongue.

When you are in a country which is de facto bilingual, the rational approach is to accept that and make life easier for the citizens, irrespective for their mother tongue.

The idealistic position is to ban the language of the minority because the grandfather of a person who speaks the same language as my neighbor called my grandfather names a few decades ago.

rdearman wrote:You'll need to explain the economic value to me here. I'm saying that in order to provide these services, the government would need to increase taxes by X amount. Let's just for argument’s sake pick a number out of the air and say the tax increase required is 25% increase in taxes across the board to provide these services. Please detail for me how this will provide a +25% growth in GDP?

Because another aspect of human nature is WIIIFM (What is in it for me?) Why would the majority accept a huge tax increase with no immediate and perceivable benefit? How would this idealistic government sell this idea to the masses?


There are economic and societal benefits.

Let's start with economic benefits with a quote from a Russian-speaking Estonian: "teaching Russian-speaking children in a non-native language will provide them with sufficient knowledge and skills for their further education or successful employment." (Source: Estonian court upholds ban on teaching in Russian at municipal schools.)

Acquiring a skill is hard. In a foreign language, it's harder. When you deny 20-25% of your population from acquiring skills in their mother tongue, you are actually reducing their overall skillset and your own government revenues. Instead of thinking how to construct a while-loop, an eighth-grader will probably spend half his time thinking what's a while-loop in Estonian. An economist can quantify the growth that you can get by adding 20-25% more people to your workforce.

As to WIIIFM, you get a country where everyone feels belonged instead of a country where the majority oppresses the minority and both hate each other. If a quarter of the population can neither study in its mother tongue nor access government services in their language, then it's a recipe for disaster.

Svanderov wrote:We have treated the Russians with plenty of respect in the past and given them plenty of leeway. There are NUMEROUS schools here where students can get an education in Russian, for example.


Russians who were born in Estonia have as much of a right to live in their country as Estonians. One of those rights includes the ability to use one's mother tongue in schools. But it seems Estonia has other plans. "Our understanding definitely is that in the future we will undoubtedly reach the point where there are no Russian-language schools in Estonia," Estonian member of parliament Urmas Reinsalu. (Source: Estonia Moves to End Russian-Medium Schools).


I have two things to say to that:

1) the Estonian language is already in danger of dying out. Let the people who choose to live here, learn the language.

2) I was born here, and have lived here for 26 years. I know what the situation here is better than you do.
Last edited by Svanderov on Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
4 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3505
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9384

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby Le Baron » Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:17 pm

rdearman wrote:While that is a nice sentiment, it would double the cost to the government to provide those services, and governments don't earn money they take it from citizens. It is economically more viable for a country to force immigrants to learn the national language. Harsh, perhaps, but that is the way the world works. Also while I haven't done a lot of research I don't believe that Estonia has a huge GNP or surplus of funding.

This is actually not correct. They do not take any 'funding' from citizens. They provide funding for citizens. Citizens don't have printing presses at home or a central bank computer! That is counterfeiting. A sovereign issuer government (this is an important qualification) doesn't save in its own currency, so there is no sense of 'cost' in a financial sense. The consideration is only ever about resource availability.

The word 'surplus' was used. It's important to understand what this actually means. A surplus in economics is not some pile of cash the government has stockpiled from somewhere in order to fund things (remember they don't 'save'), it is when the government reduces spending/issue. it is the equal opposite of a deficit. It's worthwhile for everyone to relax how they normally think about that in order to fully understand it. When the government runs a surplus, it is then the general public (and the private business sector, both are grouped under the private/domestic sector) which has to run the deficit. The common name for this is 'austerity'. Since the non-issuers actually can run out of money.

Tax rises (or cuts) are not the source of funding. Taxation (after its function as the driver of currency acceptance) is the mechanism for cancelling credit; i.e. all that money issued directly by government spending and the issue effected by loans taken out by the non-government sector for financing (remember: loans are pure credit). Effectively they are a mechanism to control inflationary issue. It is important that every unit of currency issued generates economic activity.
Taxation isn't taken from people and 'recycled'. It is taken to create 'fiscal space', where that is needed (and in these restricted economies we've lived in since +/- 1980 they say it is) so the government can continue to spend to the public purpose. There is no direct link between tax paid and new spending.

So for the question of a country funding national policy, for our purposes here the funding of a programme to teach people languages, the government is in no sense cash-strapped and can purchase anything that is for sale in the currency it issues. That is: labour and materials. Of course Estonia, among many other countries, are in the EU and the EU removes national monetary sovereignty from members and places an ideological fiscal restriction on them. They are fundamentally not operating under monetary sovereignty; but the ECB is. This is another discussion entirely though.
8 x

User avatar
verdastelo
Orange Belt
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:20 pm
Languages: Punjabi (N), Hindi-Urdu (near-native), English (C1+), Russian (B1+), French (A2+), Chinese (A1+), Kannada (A0+)
x 740

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby verdastelo » Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:02 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:As I said, things get nuanced when language is used as a pretext for political pressure.


I'm all ears. Please explain the reasoning that leads from "language is used as a pretext for political pressure" to "Let's ban the mother tongue of one-fifth or one-quarter of our population." Add all the nuance you want, with an emphasis on the linguistic side of the debate.

Svanderov wrote:2) I was born here, and have lived here for 26 years. I know what the situation here is better than you do.


If that makes you an expert, please explain to me, why one ethnic group is allowed to study in its language and another ethnic group is prevented from getting an education in its language?
Last edited by verdastelo on Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
The life of man is but a succession of vain hopes and groundless fears. — Monte(s)quieu

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23122
Contact:

Re: Has anyone else developed strong negative connotations with some languages?

Postby rdearman » Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:37 pm

OK, this is getting far too political, so let's all just park it here.
3 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests