The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

General discussion about learning languages
Khayyam
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The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby Khayyam » Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:41 am

Opinion: as soon as you've learned the alphabet of your TL, you should immediately jump in to reading things that actually interest you (while listening to a fluent reader read them, of course). Of course you've got to build the fundamentals as well, but there's no reason you shouldn't also be like Mario and go down a secret pipe that leads you to an advanced level where no one gave you permission to be. You'll have to look up every single word as you go along, and maybe spend 20 minutes wracking your brain over some of them if there's no good translation in your native language, but that sort of strain is great for making new words stick. And you're doing something COOL. While other beginners are learning how to introduce themselves and ask where the bathroom is, you may start right off by learning a slick idiom.

Thoughts?

Edit: If I ever go to Iran and am unable to ask where the bathroom is, I'm sure I'll rue this day.
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby leosmith » Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:51 am

Khayyam wrote:Opinion: as soon as you've learned the alphabet of your TL, you should immediately jump in to reading things that actually interest you (while listening to a fluent reader read them, of course).
Imo, as long as you'd "mastered" pronunciation at the same time you learned the alphabet, and always read out loud, I don't necessarily think this would be damaging. But I prefer to spend 1 to 3 months getting a broad base before starting to read "normal" native material. In that 1 to 3 months, I do have a reading component, but it's mostly me reading my flashcards out loud. I study all other facets of language learning at that time too, except for conversation. At the end of the 1 to 3 months, I start conversing, and start reading normal native material daily. I use a reading tool, so looking up words is a piece of cake.
(while listening to a fluent reader read them, of course).
There is no "of course" about this. I do it sometimes, but don't find it nearly as effective as reading out loud without audio in the background. I use TTS when I want to check pronunciation.
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby Lisa » Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:56 am

While I'm all for reading way above your level (although not as far as you suggest), I do feel very strongly that one should always learn the word for bathroom or toilet in the local language. Been there: tried to imagine how I could express myself with handwaving and mime...
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby LupCenușiu » Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:51 am

In the end, provided that you didn't quit, all roads lead to the top, just some are more convoluted, rough or even backtracking. Is it damaging to try really advanced content as the second step after alphabet? Probably not, IF you are highly motivated and can stomach trudging through the swamp of the unknown. Is it effective, considering the time and energy spent? Hell, no.

Given two persons with equal skill and motivation, spending the same amount of time, one taking your approach for six months and the other using pharmaceutical doses of advanced content as motivation, maybe, while following a more staggered course, a couple of months of getting a solid base before adventuring further, I'm willing to bet the second will have a better handling of language, and more success in consuming the initial material after six months, too.

But it is your time and your experience, and not everyone is trying to be as efficient as possible. Some just choose to ignore the scythe of Chronos. :)
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby Gaoling97 » Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:52 am

Do whatever you want if it works for you or is fun for you, but that sounds like a really terrible and demotivating idea to me personally. Not to mention inefficient. You learn words best in context, but if you have to look up every word in every sentence...there is no "context" for your brain to attach things to or any pervious information in your brain to make connections to; you are just creating a glorified word list to memorize. Assuming you even make a list at all and aren't just spending 95% of your time in the dictionary.

Reading stuff above your level is one thing, but this is far too much. I guess it's fine if you're also doing it in conjunction with something at your level, but it still seems like a pretty poor way to spend your time.

Also, I know you said "alphabet", but this doesn't really work for, say, Chinese, where, even if you somehow magically know all the characters individually, you won't be able to even tell where the words start and stop.
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby ryanheise » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:34 pm

I remember once having an episode of super high motivation, and an 11 hour train trip ahead of me, in which I decided I wanted to tackle a Korean novel with 60% unknown words. By the end of the trip, I had a headache and didn't want to touch Korean for a month.

Gaoling97 wrote:Do whatever you want if it works for you or is fun for you, but that sounds like a really terrible and demotivating idea to me personally. Not to mention inefficient.


Exactly. There's also a general principle here.

During the pandemic, a series of unfortunate events left me with significant muscle atrophy and unable to walk. I was hugely motivated to walk again for my general health, mental health, and a range of other reasons, not the least of which is that I have always loved walking, and I actually used to do most of my language learning while walking.

Based on a motivation high, I decided I would double the amount of exercise prescribed by the physiotherapist, on the theory that working twice as hard would be twice as good for me. Instead, my body incurred more stress than it could cope with, and I ended up requiring a lengthy recovery period each time, similar to what happened after that train trip.

Simply put, it is no good if an exercise requires significant recovery time. After the train trip, the following 1 month of inactivity was enough for me to lose whatever benefits I may have gained from that intensive exercise. And similarly, after over-doing my leg muscle exercises, I ended up taking a recovery period that was long enough for me to lose any gains I had made during the exercise. I was making no progress.

It has been 2 years now since the initial muscle atrophy, and after a long period of ineffective exercise, I am finally making tangible progress now that I am staying within healthy limits. If only I had taken that approach from the beginning, I may have been fully mobile by now.

but this doesn't really work for, say, Chinese, where, even if you somehow magically know all the characters individually, you won't be able to even tell where the words start and stop.


This issue of knowing where words start and stop, and how they're conjugated, is not really an issue with modern reading software. For example, jisho.org (for Japanese) breaks up the words and conjugations and lets you click on a word to see its definition:

Image

https://jisho.org/search/昨日すき焼きを食べました

And browser plugins like yomichan provide similar assistive reading tools while reading any webpage.

They do make it easier to process unknown words, but even with those tools all running at their optimum, there is still such a thing as doing too much. Sometimes less is more.
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby Iversen » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:54 pm

Bilingual printouts make it possible to access things that are far above your current level (but interesting), and it would be foolish not to profit from that.
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Gaoling97
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby Gaoling97 » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:11 pm

ryanheise wrote:This issue of knowing where words start and stop, and how they're conjugated, is not really an issue with modern reading software. For example, jisho.org (for Japanese) breaks up the words and conjugations and lets you click on a word to see its definition:


This is true. I was just thinking of physical, printed books. To my recollection, Pleco for example is usually very good about splitting sentences into individual words.
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Khayyam
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby Khayyam » Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:40 pm

To address the example of German separable verbs; I figured out what they are just from reading, without even being aware of their existence when i started. I believe i experienced about 10 minutes of frustration with the first one I encountered, but then it clicked, and from then on I was always alert for the possibility that a verb would be split. I suspect I was more alert than I would have been if I hadn't learned by struggling, but of course I can't know that. In any case, when I listened to a formal lesson on separable verbs much later, there was nothing in it that I didn't already know. Very satisfying.

I'll concede that there are probably languages much more difficult than German where this sort of stubbornness would be pure stupidity, though. If I decided to learn Chinese, you can bet I'd sit down like a good boy and do exactly what the teacher/textbook said, with very little rebellious experimentation.

I'm still just starting with Persian, but I've used my rebellious, prideful, possibly stupid approach to get to the point where I can almost-casually read and listen to a Persian translation of Chapter 1 of Genesis. And many of the words are clearly sticking; as I move onto Chapter 2, I find that I don't need to look up the words for God, bless(ing), heaven, man, seed, and quite a few others that I didn't know when I started Chapter 1.

It did occur to me, though, that the fact that I'm reading scriptures may make a difference. They're meant to be read with obsessive seriousness (which is to imply nothing about their actual value--I just mean the spirit in which they were written), which lends itself well (for me) to borderline-masochistic levels of repetition. Maybe I'm a reincarnation of a self-flagellating Jesuit priest. :lol:

Edited to fix "separable much verbs." I sure can words in my native language on a language learners' forum. Behold the linguistic prodigy.
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Re: The argument for jumping straight into reading whatever you like, even as a total novice

Postby Picaboo » Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:11 pm

I repeatedly tried this method learning Korean. I really wanted it to work, but it was too painful. And absolutely exhausting.

My personal limit now for "intensive reading" is around 50% unknown words and even that is not really reading, but, for me, a study routine. With something that hard I use the same text over and over until it's well known. I don't just move on to the next one.

It might be fairly decent technique if you know a similar language and can read all the usual beginner textbook dialogues. I have no experience there, but will surely try it when I learn French.
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