Le Baron wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:English pronunciation is much more irregular and difficult to ascertain how to pronounce from it's written form than French. French spelling, seemingly a minefield from afar, is in fact full of predictable patterns. That's more objective than subjective.
I don't think this is true at all. Most languages (if not all) end up with very predictable patterns simply due to shared usage and the familiarity arising from that.
Well I disagree. English is known for being notoriously unpredictable with regards to the written system being a representation of phonetics. Take
-ough for example...
See link:
https://www.speechactive.com/ways-to-pronounce-ough/As taken from the above site (I'm sure there are many online to be found), as an example, ough has 9 different ways in which it can be pronounced:
The letters ‘ough’ can be pronounced 9 different ways in English. ‘ough’ can be pronounced as [ʌf] in rough, /aʊ/ in plough/u:/ in through, /oʊ/ in though, /ɔː/ in thought, /ə/ – in thorough /ˈθʌr.ə/, /ɒf/ in cough, /ʌp/ in hiccough and /ɒk/ in lough.
See more examples in a full list of words with ‘ough’ below.
Wow! For most learners of English, that makes their head spin! English tutors and teachers often use the letters ‘ough’ as a way to highlight how variable English spelling and pronunciation are.
The reason that English spelling and pronunciation are variable and challenging for learners is because English is not a phonetic language.
Many other languages are ‘phonetic languages’. This means that each letter makes a particular sound – this makes learning the pronunciation easy.
English is definitely NOT like that! Like I said, English is not a phonetic language – this means that the letters that are used to spell a word, do not tell us exactly what sounds we need to make when we pronunce it.
Anyone trying to convince me that French is less predictable or equally unpredictable when attempting to pronounce words from their written counterparts is not going to win me over.
Le Baron wrote:The French themselves like to repeat learned factoids about French being highly logical (seemingly more so than other languages) and blessed with clarity, but this is drivel. There are lots of things in French that seem to be very unpredictable, illogical, long-winded and unfathomable for L2 learners. It is in fact the number one complaint at the language cafe I go to. That and pronunciation, which cannot be reasonably said to be more difficult than English pronunciation, regardless of the irregularities of written/spoken English. Everyone from Spaniards to Germans to Italians to English people cite French pronunciation as a complete pain-in-the-neck. Like any language there are no real reasons for certain preposition choices considered 'correct grammar', they are just habit and tradition.
I am not in disagreement that French pronunciation is difficult. I took a lot of extra time and effort to focus on French pronunciation in the learning stages for this very reason. My point is exactly as stated above that the written system of English is
less predictable than French when trying to pronounce words. I'm not saying that French pronunciation is not hard, but it does correlate (maybe I'm in a minority here) much better between the written word and pronunciation of those same words. Maybe I'm alone here. If I am, I'm very surprised.
Le Baron wrote:There's a reason foreign students gravitate towards English as the language for study and why French/German options have plummeted in Europe: it's easier.
I have my doubts about this statement. I believe it's more to do with economics, (geo) politics and whatever the trend is in pop culture (think Netflix, think Hollywood, think music) and I think if French were in the same position as English is (including being spoken in many more countries), then everyone would be learning French.
Le Baron wrote:I wouldn't care a jot if French took English's place because it won't affect me, I can manage perfectly well However, considering the absolute avalanche of effort and money poured into French by the French government to promote it, there is a real reason it doesn't have as much uptake and traction and it isn't just wicked Anglo-Saxon imperialism. The French are imperialists too and got French to where it is in Africa and elsewhere by the exact same means.
While your statements here may not be untrue (I haven't investigated), I suspect the efforts to spread English are greater, but seemingly more subtle. For whatever reason though, many English speakers love to poke at French, but I sincerely believe this is like the pot calling the kettle black.