Why do people still study Esperanto?

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9384

Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:08 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:To be tangent to the topic, that's why a constructed language would never achieve world-level status. Lacks the traction, because daily needs usually prevails against sophisticated ideas for most people.

This is very true. It has to have lots of broad use.

There is one thing though, and it has to be repeated. Esperanto's goal isn't to displace languages and be the world's lingua-franca in the sense English is understood to be that. It's something a lot simpler geared to communication in a pinch. Something you don't have to put thousands of hours into or sit an exam for to be accepted. The culture around it was built to maintain the language in the early days when it needed to have a core life in order not to fade away and to demonstrate to naysayers that you could render things like the Bible and Plato into Esperanto and it still carried the message in the same way.

The actual core is communication. Simply and effectively.
2 x

User avatar
tungemål
Blue Belt
Posts: 947
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Location: Norway
Languages: Norwegian (N)
English, German, Spanish, Japanese, Dutch, Polish
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17672
x 2181

Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby tungemål » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:10 pm

Le Baron wrote:
LupCenușiu wrote:Economical, technological and political power. US leading on these provided the ground for English to become de facto world's language. Internet's advent reinforced that. Imperfect English is the Vulgar Latin of our times. For the foreseeable future will remain like that.


It was already widespread before the U.S. became a world power.

Why English became the world language: One word: Rock-and-Roll-music. The way I see it is that cultural influence is what makes a language popular, not political power. Before the second world war, it was just as common to know German or French in Norway, as English (maybe more so). After the war we had a series of cultural events originating in the US that spread English:
- Rock music spreading with radio and recordings
- Movies from Hollywood and TV series
- computers and internet
0 x

User avatar
LupCenușiu
Yellow Belt
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Languages: RO (educated sarcastic native) EN (emulating fluency) GE, FR(various degrees of incompetency)
x 176

Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby LupCenușiu » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:22 pm

Le Baron wrote:There is one thing though, and it has to be repeated. Esperanto's goal isn't to displace languages and be the world's lingua-franca in the sense English is understood to be that. It's something a lot simpler geared to communication in a pinch. Something you don't have to put thousands of hours into or sit an exam for to be accepted. The culture around it was built to maintain the language in the early days when it needed to have a core life in order not to fade away and to demonstrate to naysayers that you could render things like the Bible and Plato into Esperanto and it still carried the message in the same way.

The actual core is communication. Simply and effectively.


Yeah, from the few articles I read, seems like it was built on certain ideas. I'm sure being used as a world language was a dream, and some actually hoped for that. Others realized that less lofty goals can be accomplished, and worked to ensure the survival of the language. You can say is a language of hopes and dreams if you are poetically inclined. Or a "geeks for geeks" project, avant la lettre. Regardless, is an interesting case.
0 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9384

Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:29 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:Yeah, from the few articles I read, seems like it was built on certain ideas. I'm sure being used as a world language was a dream, and some actually hoped for that. Others realized that less lofty goals can be accomplished, and worked to ensure the survival of the language. You can say is a language of hopes and dreams if you are poetically inclined. Or a "geeks for geeks" project, avant la lettre. Regardless, is an interesting case.

That's not quite what I was saying. Very far from it actually. This is notion of it being a fuzzy dream of kumbayah and a sort of harmless bit of tomfoolery, is the wrong notion. It's can be insulting.

Like women's rights and what women do with their own bodies the like, there seems to be lots of opinion about Esperanto from people with not only no stake in it, but no real familiarity with any of it. I find this baffling.
0 x

User avatar
LupCenușiu
Yellow Belt
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Languages: RO (educated sarcastic native) EN (emulating fluency) GE, FR(various degrees of incompetency)
x 176

Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby LupCenușiu » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:33 pm

tungemål wrote:
Le Baron wrote:
LupCenușiu wrote:Economical, technological and political power. US leading on these provided the ground for English to become de facto world's language. Internet's advent reinforced that. Imperfect English is the Vulgar Latin of our times. For the foreseeable future will remain like that.


It was already widespread before the U.S. became a world power.

Why English became the world language: One word: Rock-and-Roll-music. The way I see it is that cultural influence is what makes a language popular, not political power. Before the second world war, it was just as common to know German or French in Norway, as English (maybe more so). After the war we had a series of cultural events originating in the US that spread English:
- Rock music spreading with radio and recordings
- Movies from Hollywood and TV series
- computers and internet


Being into the genre (well, more into more modern offspring, but I digress), that is a nice thought, though...
Culture travels in the carriage pulled by economy and technology. US winning the second world war and leading the Western Europe through the Cold War was a major factor. TV, computer, internet, that's the technology aspect.
American music and movies played a certain role, for sure. However, before 1989 in Eastern Europe Russian (and somewhat Chinese with movies) culture dominated. After Iron Curtain fell, English spread very fast in the East as well. Culture alone won't get you very far.
1 x

User avatar
LupCenușiu
Yellow Belt
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Languages: RO (educated sarcastic native) EN (emulating fluency) GE, FR(various degrees of incompetency)
x 176

Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby LupCenușiu » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:53 pm

Le Baron wrote:
LupCenușiu wrote:Yeah, from the few articles I read, seems like it was built on certain ideas. I'm sure being used as a world language was a dream, and some actually hoped for that. Others realized that less lofty goals can be accomplished, and worked to ensure the survival of the language. You can say is a language of hopes and dreams if you are poetically inclined. Or a "geeks for geeks" project, avant la lettre. Regardless, is an interesting case.

That's not quite what I was saying. Very far from it actually. This is notion of it being a fuzzy dream of kumbayah and a sort of harmless bit of tomfoolery, is the wrong notion. It's can be insulting.

Like women's rights and what women do with their own bodies the like, there seems to be lots of opinion about Esperanto from people with not only no stake in it, but no real familiarity with any of it. I find this baffling.


Guess I'll get more familiarity along the road of the latest challenge to learn it :D . Until then, you must excuse my less than orthodox takes on the topic. Might also be some less than perfect handling of the intricate semantic field of certain terms on my part, however,in my book hopes and dreams don't necessarily equate toomfoolery and kumbayah. Can overlap, of course, but I have no intention to create Venn diagrams to illustrate my opinion about this. So, let me check if I get it right.

You say that Esperanto was created as a meaning of simplified communication but without the goal of becoming a world-level language. This sounds like a product of pure ideas to me. Includes both hopes and dreams. I don't find the "geeks" term insulting, but , then again, we might've run into some sort of cultural backgrounds misalignment.
Anyway, feel free to elaborate on the baffling and potentially insulting parts. While I don't have the personal stakes you seem to insert in the dialogue, I'm not in some sort of mocking position either. After all, I allocated some time (minimal, as it is) to learn that language.
0 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:01 am

Le Baron wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:English pronunciation is much more irregular and difficult to ascertain how to pronounce from it's written form than French. French spelling, seemingly a minefield from afar, is in fact full of predictable patterns. That's more objective than subjective.

I don't think this is true at all. Most languages (if not all) end up with very predictable patterns simply due to shared usage and the familiarity arising from that.


Well I disagree. English is known for being notoriously unpredictable with regards to the written system being a representation of phonetics. Take -ough for example...

See link: https://www.speechactive.com/ways-to-pronounce-ough/

As taken from the above site (I'm sure there are many online to be found), as an example, ough has 9 different ways in which it can be pronounced:

The letters ‘ough’ can be pronounced 9 different ways in English. ‘ough’ can be pronounced as [ʌf] in rough, /aʊ/ in plough/u:/ in through, /oʊ/ in though, /ɔː/ in thought, /ə/ – in thorough /ˈθʌr.ə/, /ɒf/ in cough, /ʌp/ in hiccough and /ɒk/ in lough.

See more examples in a full list of words with ‘ough’ below.

Wow! For most learners of English, that makes their head spin! English tutors and teachers often use the letters ‘ough’ as a way to highlight how variable English spelling and pronunciation are.

The reason that English spelling and pronunciation are variable and challenging for learners is because English is not a phonetic language.

Many other languages are ‘phonetic languages’. This means that each letter makes a particular sound – this makes learning the pronunciation easy.

English is definitely NOT like that! Like I said, English is not a phonetic language – this means that the letters that are used to spell a word, do not tell us exactly what sounds we need to make when we pronunce it.


Anyone trying to convince me that French is less predictable or equally unpredictable when attempting to pronounce words from their written counterparts is not going to win me over.

Le Baron wrote:The French themselves like to repeat learned factoids about French being highly logical (seemingly more so than other languages) and blessed with clarity, but this is drivel. There are lots of things in French that seem to be very unpredictable, illogical, long-winded and unfathomable for L2 learners. It is in fact the number one complaint at the language cafe I go to. That and pronunciation, which cannot be reasonably said to be more difficult than English pronunciation, regardless of the irregularities of written/spoken English. Everyone from Spaniards to Germans to Italians to English people cite French pronunciation as a complete pain-in-the-neck. Like any language there are no real reasons for certain preposition choices considered 'correct grammar', they are just habit and tradition.


I am not in disagreement that French pronunciation is difficult. I took a lot of extra time and effort to focus on French pronunciation in the learning stages for this very reason. My point is exactly as stated above that the written system of English is less predictable than French when trying to pronounce words. I'm not saying that French pronunciation is not hard, but it does correlate (maybe I'm in a minority here) much better between the written word and pronunciation of those same words. Maybe I'm alone here. If I am, I'm very surprised.

Le Baron wrote:There's a reason foreign students gravitate towards English as the language for study and why French/German options have plummeted in Europe: it's easier.


I have my doubts about this statement. I believe it's more to do with economics, (geo) politics and whatever the trend is in pop culture (think Netflix, think Hollywood, think music) and I think if French were in the same position as English is (including being spoken in many more countries), then everyone would be learning French.

Le Baron wrote:I wouldn't care a jot if French took English's place because it won't affect me, I can manage perfectly well However, considering the absolute avalanche of effort and money poured into French by the French government to promote it, there is a real reason it doesn't have as much uptake and traction and it isn't just wicked Anglo-Saxon imperialism. The French are imperialists too and got French to where it is in Africa and elsewhere by the exact same means.


While your statements here may not be untrue (I haven't investigated), I suspect the efforts to spread English are greater, but seemingly more subtle. For whatever reason though, many English speakers love to poke at French, but I sincerely believe this is like the pot calling the kettle black.
1 x

User avatar
Lianne
Green Belt
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:29 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: Speaks: English (N)
Actively studying: French (low int)
Dabbling in: Italian (beginner), ASL (beginner), Ojibwe (beginner), Swahili (beginner)
Wish list: Swedish, Esperanto, Klingon, Brazilian Portuguese
Has also dabbled in: German, Spanish, toki pona
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?t=12275
x 1298
Contact:

Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby Lianne » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:04 am

I've studied Esperanto, because it's fun and one can make quick progress in it, which is satisfying and lacks the frustration involved in learning natural languages. As a first foreign language, it has a lot of advantages in that one can use it to learn grammatical concepts in a very regular way before being thrown to the wolves of a natural language with a more complicated grammar and loads of exceptions.

I've also studied Klingon because I'm a big ol' nerd.

I guess we aren't all here because we necessarily love languages, but I assume a fair few of us are. Most of the languages I've dabbled in have not had a great deal of practical purpose in my life. (Although one never knows; I've dabbled in Swahili and recently had cause to regret not sticking with it when several students came to my school speaking only Swahili and struggling with online translators!)
5 x
: 3 / 100 French SC (Books)
: 7 / 100 French SC (Films)
: 0 / 50 Italian Half SC (Books)
: 0 / 50 Italian Half SC (Films)

Pronouns: they/them

User avatar
Kullman
Orange Belt
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:54 pm
Languages: Spanish (N) Galician (N) English (B2)
x 201

Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby Kullman » Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:48 am

I'm also a bit of a nerd, and I also entertained the idea to learn some klingon...

In fact, I'm pretty sure I got a dictionary english-klingon/klingon-english somewhere.

Studying something for the pure pleasure of studying wasn't never my thing... I like to learn new things, but on a completely disorganized way, and for the most part, is how I learned english (and I think it's pretty obvious).

I really would love to learn french to understand Truffaut movies instead of reading subtitles, but right now most of my time is devoted to a technical degree in a subject which isn't, and never was, my forte...

Even if I wouldn't learn esperanto, I can understand the appeal which provokes, and the reasons of the people to learn it.

I'm a bit surprised than no one said nothing about the historical value of the language itself, which is undeniable...
1 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby garyb » Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:18 pm

There was another good discussion about Esparanto a while ago that changed my opinion from "it's pointless" to "I'm not interested but I can see why people are".
4 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: guyome, tastyonions, themethod and 2 guests