Why do people still study Esperanto?

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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:39 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:English pronunciation is much more irregular and difficult to ascertain how to pronounce from it's written form than French. French spelling, seemingly a minefield from afar, is in fact full of predictable patterns. That's more objective than subjective.

I don't think this is true at all. Most languages (if not all) end up with very predictable patterns simply due to shared usage and the familiarity arising from that. It's how phrases, sayings, idioms etc are even born and exist. If it wasn't like this people would have to put way more effort into daily communication.

The French themselves like to repeat learned factoids about French being highly logical (seemingly more so than other languages) and blessed with clarity, but this is drivel. There are lots of things in French that seem to be very unpredictable, illogical, long-winded and unfathomable for L2 learners. It is in fact the number one complaint at the language cafe I go to. That and pronunciation, which cannot be reasonably said to be more difficult than English pronunciation, regardless of the irregularities of written/spoken English. Everyone from Spaniards to Germans to Italians to English people cite French pronunciation as a complete pain-in-the-neck. Like any language there are no real reasons for certain preposition choices considered 'correct grammar', they are just habit and tradition.

There's a reason foreign students gravitate towards English as the language for study and why French/German options have plummeted in Europe: it's easier.

I wouldn't care a jot if French took English's place because it won't affect me, I can manage perfectly well However, considering the absolute avalanche of effort and money poured into French by the French government to promote it, there is a real reason it doesn't have as much uptake and traction and it isn't just wicked Anglo-Saxon imperialism. The French are imperialists too and got French to where it is in Africa and elsewhere by the exact same means.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Kullman » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:12 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Nevertheless, subjectively many people do indeed struggle with French pronunciation, but the same could be said of English for different reasons. In the opinion of many (deliberately vague here), there are tons of languages that are harder to learn than both French and English. I believe French (or any other language) is not where English is today for reasons related to geopolitics and not the difficulty of the languages themselves.


I think the 6 tenses of english, instead of the 20 tenses of french, have got something to do with the popularity of the first language over the second.

I think declinations in german make this language harder, at least for a beginner, than english.

Also the guttural sounds, which are also in the french, makes pronounciation harder than english, at least from my point of view.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby LupCenușiu » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:13 pm

Le Baron wrote:However, considering the absolute avalanche of effort and money poured into French by the French government to promote it, there is a real reason it doesn't have as much uptake and traction and it isn't just wicked Anglo-Saxon imperialism. The French are imperialists too and got French to where it is in Africa and elsewhere by the exact same means.

Economical, technological and political power. US leading on these provided the ground for English to become de facto world's language. Internet's advent reinforced that. Imperfect English is the Vulgar Latin of our times. For the foreseeable future will remain like that.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:42 pm

STT44 wrote:
Kullman wrote:I think the 6 tenses of english, instead of the 20 tenses of french, have got something to do with the popularity of the first language over the second.


Plus no grammatical gender, much easier conjugation (I went, he went, they went), no case endings, no adjective declension, explicit pronouns with no room for confusion (unlike Italian, Spanish, Greek)...

Kullman wrote:I think declinations in german make this language harder, at least for a beginner, than english.


German grammar is unnecessarily complex without providing its speakers some value for that complexity.

And yet Esperanto with even better simplification and perfect orthography is daft?
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:45 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:
Le Baron wrote:However, considering the absolute avalanche of effort and money poured into French by the French government to promote it, there is a real reason it doesn't have as much uptake and traction and it isn't just wicked Anglo-Saxon imperialism. The French are imperialists too and got French to where it is in Africa and elsewhere by the exact same means.

Economical, technological and political power. US leading on these provided the ground for English to become de facto world's language. Internet's advent reinforced that. Imperfect English is the Vulgar Latin of our times. For the foreseeable future will remain like that.


It was already widespread before the U.S. became a world power. England had barely a pinprick of influence in French Africa and still English made inroads. It's just easier. There's also the fact that British colonialism never imposed the language, whereas French did. That adds to the notion of it being a 'boss' language. The mistake of making the language-culture-identity indivisible in that way is that shaking off the yoke involves shaking off the language. They built their own gallows.
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Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby rdearman » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:46 pm

Le Baron wrote:The French themselves like to repeat learned factoids about French being highly logical (seemingly more so than other languages) and blessed with clarity, but this is drivel.

A factoid contrary to popular belief is something which appears to be factual but is actually FALSE, it is not a small fact. It annoys me when people use it word incorrectly. I once considered writing a book which starts by saying this book has 1000 factoids and one fact. And on the very last page put the fact that a factoid is false.

(I am aware that some American dictionaries have changed the definition of factoid to reflect common American usage.)
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Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:46 pm

rdearman wrote:
Le Baron wrote:The French themselves like to repeat learned factoids about French being highly logical (seemingly more so than other languages) and blessed with clarity, but this is drivel.

A factoid contrary to popular belief is something which appears to be factual but is actually FALSE, it is not a small fact. It annoys me when people use it word incorrectly. I once considered writing a book which starts by saying this book has 1000 factoids and one fact. And on the very last page put the fact that a factoid is false.

(I am aware that some American dictionaries have changed the definition of factoid to reflect common American usage.)


I am using it in that sense.
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Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby rdearman » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:48 pm

Le Baron wrote:
rdearman wrote:
Le Baron wrote:The French themselves like to repeat learned factoids about French being highly logical (seemingly more so than other languages) and blessed with clarity, but this is drivel.

A factoid contrary to popular belief is something which appears to be factual but is actually FALSE, it is not a small fact. It annoys me when people use it word incorrectly. I once considered writing a book which starts by saying this book has 1000 factoids and one fact. And on the very last page put the fact that a factoid is false.

(I am aware that some American dictionaries have changed the definition of factoid to reflect common American usage.)


I am using it in that sense.

I know. And good for you!
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Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:51 pm

rdearman wrote:I know. And good for you!

Sorry I must be on edge. Bravo and thanks.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby LupCenușiu » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:01 pm

Le Baron wrote:It was already widespread before the U.S. became a world power. England had barely a pinprick of influence in French Africa and still English made inroads. It's just easier. There's also the fact that British colonialism never imposed the language, whereas French did. That adds to the notion of it being a 'boss' language. The mistake of making the language-culture-identity indivisible in that way is that shaking off the yoke involves shaking off the language. They built their own gallows.


British Empire laid the foundation. The US built a mansion. At the height of the British Empire English was not as used as it is now, in Europe and beyond. You can argue that in colonies other than English ones, other languages were used, of course. But language flies on the wings of power, and as I mentioned, economical, political, technological power, that's US being the current equivalent of the Roman Empire on a larger scale and with better behaviour :D . English being moderately complex helped, but in an alternate reality where China leads the world, people would happily speak and write in broken Mandarin.

To be tangent to the topic, that's why a constructed language would never achieve world-level status. Lacks the traction, because daily needs usually prevails against sophisticated ideas for most people. No matter how easy it is, a new language is a new language, and extra effort to learn.
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