Why do people still study Esperanto?

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Le Baron
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:29 pm

STT44 wrote:
Le Baron wrote:And yet Esperanto with even better simplification and perfect orthography is daft?


Which part of "I'll never learn a fake language, but you go ahead if you want to" is unclear to you?


All of it, because it's a idiotic prejudice based upon nothing.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 pm

Kullman wrote:
Cavesa wrote:And the question on the probability of meeting an esperantist is the total opposite of what should be asked. Nope, the chances of meeting one by accident are not too high. They are like a cool secret organisation, they arrange to meet, and they have their own language, culture, and surely even jokes. And they are spread everywhere!


You make it sound like a cult... :lol:


Yeah! But a fun one that doesn't try to get their hands on your money! A unique cult!

Really, that's another reason. Esperanto has always been about free access and self teaching.

It is extremely rare to get free resources up to high levels, usually you can do very little with the normal free contemporary resources for learners. But Lernu is awesome, way above the usual such resources for other languages, and totally free. Sprachprofi is right now running a free challenge, where she gives guidance or tutoring that would normally cost hundreds of euros.

And some of the best looking "self teaching" resources are on Esperanto. The authors expect the Esperanto learner to be motivated and intellecutally capable of doing this. That is sort of unique.

Yeah, you may criticise a lot about the ideology originally behind it, I would be sceptical about some parts of it too (especially in the past). But right now, at this point, I find Esperanto's distance from the rest of the language learning market and attitude very refreshing and healthy.

Damn it, why can't I have free time for Esperanto and why cannot it be less romance? :-D :-D :-D
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:55 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:You say that Esperanto was created as a meaning of simplified communication but without the goal of becoming a world-level language. This sounds like a product of pure ideas to me. Includes both hopes and dreams. I don't find the "geeks" term insulting, but , then again, we might've run into some sort of cultural backgrounds misalignment.

And that is different from the French promoting French as a means for mass communication in what way? Don't you find it odd that promotion of French where it isn't being taken up as a choice is considered legitimate, whereas an idea to promote a well-functioning neutral language as a tool of communication is portrayed as a sort of pipe-dream and 'hope'?

Perhaps not, which would explain why a lot of people here say what they say.
LupCenușiu wrote:[i]Anyway, feel free to elaborate on the baffling and potentially insulting parts. While I don't have the personal stakes you seem to insert in the dialogue, I'm not in some sort of mocking position either. After all, I allocated some time (minimal, as it is) to learn that language.

Every post has had to be an 'elaboration'. It seems to be necessary each time anew as someone else trots out another series of unfounded observations. I don't really care for the way you are couching this though 'Personal stakes' as though I am some sort of cult member or nutter. I just don't want to sit back whilst people pass off vacuous commentary as considered evaluation.

Nowhere in language learning do we encounter people who are learning e.g. Spanish, German, Russian etc and are at A1, A2, passing comment as to tidying-up problems, as though they are masters of the language. Whereas folk dabble in Esperanto, learn the question words and five minutes later are proposing a full-blown thesis about how it needs to be 'improved' or destroyed, or how it has 'failed'. Where does the boldness come from? Could it be that in 'natural' languages the natives couldn't give two hoots what the average L2 learner's opinions are? And that the L2 learner needs to fall into line or toddle off?

STT44's position is typical of many people. A persistent desire to seek out and chip in where Esperanto is mentioned, as if it is a reaction against HMS Esperanto going about trying to press gang people into learning. If I were to start a thread about seriously promoting the rebirth of Latin as the major lingua franca, people might think me naive, but not to the point where they would start posting with a clever little avuncular titter as though they're addressing the whims of a child or seething with anger at the false notion that it is being forced upon them. Note well the differences. What we're seeing is an empty prejudice.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:13 pm

STT44 wrote:You're not going to do your recruitment drive into your cult any favours if you keep frothing in your mouth.

I've never recruited a single person for Esperanto. What part of 'freely choosing to learn' are you struggling to understand?

However you've pretty much helped everyone to see your biased position by using the word 'cult'. Esperanto lives rent-free in your mind.

By the way, the phrase is: frothing AT the mouth.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:38 pm

STT44 wrote:And I've made my position clear several times, that I'll never learn a fake language, but I have no opinion on others learning whatever they want to. And you, like all good little cult members, took offence every time. Your drama and tantrums are scattered all over this thread for everyone to see. So yeah, keep playing the innocent.

Yes, because it's normal to forcefully contribute to a thread topic for a language in which you have less than zero interest; as stated on multiple occasions. Just to make sure everyone knows about it again. Ask yourself: who is really invested in this topic to a point of untutored mania?
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Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby Iversen » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:45 pm

I started to learn Esperanto when a universal world congress was held in my country, and I went to see what it was. And then I went to a couple more congresses, where I even to some extent could speak the language, and I signed in as a member of the international organization. There is also a Danish organization which even has group meetings in my own town, but I have not participated in those meetings. So yes, there is a network behind Esperanto that arranges meetings and things like that, but since there isn't a country specifically for Esperantists anywhere that's a simple necessity - and by the way, there are also organizations for people with other hobbies and aspirations, and some of those are much more intimidating and scary.

When Zamenhof developed the language he was definitely doing so to promote peace and global understanding and other laudable things, and I know from my congresses that some Esperantists do take those things very seriously. However when I hear heartwrenching lofty commitments to such ultra-idealistic topics I just close my ears and eyes and pretend that it never happened - I can't stand it. Unfortunately the part of the movement that deals with science and history and other interesting topics is smaller, but still comprehensive enough to keep my interest in the language alive. And there are also people who write literature, which may be relevant for some learners. Esperanto is simply a language among other languages now despite its origins, and you can learn it and use it as any other language, and just as there are people who write absolutely uninteresting and irrelevant things in English there are people who write things in Esperanto which I prefer to ignore. And yes, that IS possible - Esperantists are less likely to stuff things down your throat than those football maniacs who have taken up half my TV stations with their babble about round plastic things that are kicked around on a field in a country far away.

As for improving on Esperanto: the fear among the ortodox samideanoj ('same-idea-keepers') is that the whole edifice will crumble if you change anything, whereas I think that it might survive a few amendments - but nothing so drastic that it would cease to be the traditionally accepted language of yore. And I think it would flourish even more if it was used primarily for other things than discussions about the language itself and world peace, but I can't tell people to stop writing about things I find boring and pointless.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:59 pm

STT44 wrote:My position is indeed that of zero interest, but according to you, I am not allowed to have that position about your cult. It must be a position of deep reverence and bowed head.

Allowed? You can have any opinion you like, even when it's from a position of ignorance. I'm not trying to prevent you having it. In fact it's good for everyone to see what the knee-jerk response from ignorance looks like. So they can save themselves from falling prey to it.
STT44 wrote:So it is my duty to put you in your place.

Never likely to happen. You don't have the tools. :lol:

Read Iversen's post above, it's a very good representation of how a normal approach works. With any language at all really.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:06 pm

STT44 wrote:Excellent, so in your opinion I'm ignorant, and in my opinion you're ignorant. I'm glad that we've reached a position of some agreement. Are we done now?

Odd conclusion. I actually have a decently long history of learning and using Esperanto. You clearly don't. How can I possibly be ignorant about it? How very odd and full of bile.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:10 pm

Le Baron wrote: If I were to start a thread about seriously promoting the rebirth of Latin as the major lingua franca, people might think me naive, .


I would second that post! Let's make Latin living and great again! Let's cherish the highly egalitarian fact that it is reasonably hard for everybody! No more privilege of the natives! No more ridicule for the non native accents! And there are tons of very good free resources. It is also the best and most precise descriptive language in science, what is not to love?
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby LupCenușiu » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:14 pm

Le Baron wrote:And that is different from the French promoting French as a means for mass communication in what way? Don't you find it odd that promotion of French where it isn't being taken up as a choice is considered legitimate, whereas an idea to promote a well-functioning neutral language as a tool of communication is portrayed as a sort of pipe-dream and 'hope'?


Not really. French has some traction to back up this claim, even if is nothing like English at the moment. Esperanto...is a product of ideas. When I was a kid, I thought humanity united under a single banner is the most logical idea for further development and expansion beyond planetary borders. A common language was, obviously, a natural choice. I still believe that, the difference is that I know I won't live to witness such thing (and that is also a great difference between a willingly united humanity and a forcibly united one). And that is a secondary effect of getting older and learning more about how society works. Probably a bit of cynicism thrown into the mixture as well. So, yes, dreams and hopes, nothing wrong with these as long as they are recognized for what they are.


Le Baron wrote:
LupCenușiu wrote:[i]Anyway, feel free to elaborate on the baffling and potentially insulting parts. While I don't have the personal stakes you seem to insert in the dialogue, I'm not in some sort of mocking position either. After all, I allocated some time (minimal, as it is) to learn that language.


I don't really care for the way you are couching this though 'Personal stakes' as though I am some sort of cult member or nutter.
I just don't want to sit back whilst people pass off vacuous commentary as considered evaluation.


I was merely noticing the register of your answers, without passing any judgments. Also, I'm not the one with the cult comparison. If anything, I'd go with crusader or stalwart defender imagery. But, anyway, judicious use of emotion spending over internet argumentations is always advisable. In theory at least :lol:

Le Baron wrote:Nowhere in language learning do we encounter people who are learning e.g. Spanish, German, Russian etc and are at A1, A2, passing comment as to tidying-up problems, as though they are masters of the language. Whereas folk dabble in Esperanto, learn the question words and five minutes later are proposing a full-blown thesis about how it needs to be 'improved' or destroyed, or how it has 'failed'. Where does the boldness come from? Could it be that in 'natural' languages the natives couldn't give two hoots what the average L2 learner's opinions are? And that the L2 learner needs to fall into line or toddle off?


Good question. I'm yet to see such a thesis, but I assume that is a widely spread idea that Esperanto is not a "true" language. While it is a conlang, it is also the one that thrived amongst the other of its kind, and that's remarkable per se. Also, I guess some people simply dislike other aspects they tend to connect (more or less justified) with this language . Again, I'm not in the position to explain that, as I don't share these views. I already explained why I believe no colang (not even Esperanto) will ever reach the universal language status. Except maybe in some dystopian developments of society, uniting the humanity through coercive meanings or something.

Le Baron wrote:STT44's position is typical of many people. A persistent desire to seek out and chip in where Esperanto is mentioned, as if it is a reaction against HMS Esperanto going about trying to press gang people into learning. If I were to start a thread about seriously promoting the rebirth of Latin as the major lingua franca, people might think me naive, but not to the point where they would start posting with a clever little avuncular titter as though they're addressing the whims of a child or seething with anger at the false notion that it is being forced upon them. Note well the differences. What we're seeing is an empty prejudice.


Yes, I already noticed, this is more of a tango than a chain dance. Still, an opportunity to learn some interesting combinations of words, but I don't really intend to contribute at pushing the topic towards the same way the previous one (linked here too) went.
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