Why do people still study Esperanto?

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Le Baron
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:19 pm

STT44 wrote:Where did I say you're ignorant about Esperanto? Do you actually have problems comprehending simple sentences or is it a trick you use to win arguments? Just curious because you've done this several times already in this thread.

It's a reasonable assumption given the thread topic. Otherwise I don't know what you are saying; if it's anything at all.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:31 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:Good question. I'm yet to see such a thesis, but I assume that is a widely spread idea that Esperanto is not a "true" language. While it is a conlang, it is also the one that thrived amongst the other of its kind, and that's remarkable per se. Also, I guess some people simply dislike other aspects they tend to connect (more or less justified) with this language . Again, I'm not in the position to explain that, as I don't share these views. I already explained why I believe no colang (not even Esperanto) will ever reach the universal language status. Except maybe in some dystopian developments of society, uniting the humanity through coercive meanings or something.


I wholly agree that Esperanto is unlikely to reach one of the early stated goals of providing a widely-used auxiliary language. Some of it is due to the prejudices around Esperanto, some of it to the fact that there isn't a 'place' associated with it. The idea around 'constructed' is more flimsy. Many modern languages are humanly organised from pre-existing materials (with compromises to suit the input sources) rather than 'natural', and also have histories of multiple deliberate reforms. Where that hasn't happened there is an acceptance of deviations and incoherence, which is thought to be sign of language legitimacy.

Odd that it is 'dystopian' developments posited, rather than its opposite 'utopian'. Or just useful organisation. It has that ring of suspicion, in the way Esperanto used to be thought of as the 'language of Communism'. Does it bear stating again that there isn't an underlying plan to get everyone speaking it by foul means or fair? It's more like a book left at a book share; you either take it and read it or you don't. It might even be recommended, but you still get the choice.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby LupCenușiu » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:50 pm

Le Baron wrote:Odd that it is 'dystopian' developments posited, rather than its opposite 'utopian'. Or just useful organisation. It has that ring of suspicion, in the way Esperanto used to be thought of as the 'language of Communism'. Does it bear stating again that there isn't an underlying plan to get everyone speaking it by foul means or fair? It's more like a book left at a book share; you either take it and read it or you don't. It might even be recommended, but you still get the choice.


No, the usage of "dystopian" was related to the way humanity can get united. In a utopian future, this would be a natural process (with a language being adopted, like English for example, simply through frequency of usage) . In a dystopian one, some sort of force would be used, and in this scenario, a hypothetical colang could be declared as mandatory. Completely unrelated to Esperanto in particular. I don't think is any conspiracy connected to it, but then again, in these times more than ever you see so many conspiracies ideas that for sure there are people believing in that too.

Of course, in a utopian future a colang could be used also, but then you have to increase the utopia factor by imagining people willingly put in some extra effort to learn it (and before, that it was a general agreement to construct it and use it). So, maybe in a future far, far away...
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:57 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:No, the usage of "dystopian" was related to the way humanity can get united. In a utopian future, this would be a natural process (with a language being adopted, like English for example, simply through frequency of usage) . In a dystopian one, some sort of force would be used, and in this scenario, a hypothetical colang could be declared as mandatory. Completely unrelated to Esperanto in particular. I don't think is any conspiracy connected to it, but then again, in these times more than ever you see so many conspiracies ideas that for sure there are people believing in that too.

However, isn't an overriding argument in this thread that English isn't simply the product of a benign adoption, but rather that it is forced by imperialist pressure, economic-cultural? A soft power version of forced implementation.
LupCenușiu wrote:Of course, in a utopian future a colang could be used also, but then you have to increase the utopia factor by imagining people willingly put in some extra effort to learn it (and before, that it was a general agreement to construct it and use it). So, maybe in a future far, far away...

Well that has to assume there is a motivating factor for adoption. Since the overwhelming one throughout history has been either that the prevailing forces used or favoured a particular language, and that people do it on the basis of economic advantage, the argument becomes convoluted and quite circular.

In this sense Esperanto's promotion is already totally benign and voluntary.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:16 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Well I disagree. English is known for being notoriously unpredictable with regards to the written system being a representation of phonetics. Take -ough for example...

This just one way to the same goal. Have you never heard people mispronouncing French even though they know how to read? One has to learn e.g. that the 'eu' sound of il y a eu doesn't sound like the 'eu' anywhere else it is employed e.g. peu, heureuse, pneu. There are plenty other like examples.
PeterMollenburg wrote:As taken from the above site (I'm sure there are many online to be found), as an example, ough has 9 different ways in which it can be pronounced:

[i]The letters ‘ough’ can be pronounced 9 different ways in English. ‘ough’ can be pronounced as [ʌf] in rough, /aʊ/ in plough/u:/ in through, /oʊ/ in though, /ɔː/ in thought, /ə/ – in thorough /ˈθʌr.ə/, /ɒf/ in cough, /ʌp/ in hiccough and /ɒk/ in lough.

Yes, the deviation away from the Germanic cognates, easy to locate in Dutch/German along with the shifts. Cough=kuch, rough=ruig, through=durch, plough=ploeg... All showing how ough was originally pronounced. English didn't have a spelling reform to cure the deviations over time, yet everyone manages when they learn the exceptions. It's not like French doesn't have awkward exceptions people have to learn. This thing about English being chaotic is vastly overblown.
PeterMollenburg wrote:The reason that English spelling and pronunciation are variable and challenging for learners is because English is not a phonetic language.
Many other languages are ‘phonetic languages’. This means that each letter makes a particular sound – this makes learning the pronunciation easy.

A great argument for Esperanto really.
PeterMollenburg wrote:Anyone trying to convince me that French is less predictable or equally unpredictable when attempting to pronounce words from their written counterparts is not going to win me over.

See above.
PeterMollenburg wrote:I have my doubts about this statement. I believe it's more to do with economics, (geo) politics and whatever the trend is in pop culture (think Netflix, think Hollywood, think music) and I think if French were in the same position as English is (including being spoken in many more countries), then everyone would be learning French.

That's a rather circular argument. 'If French was in English's position...' yet 'French is not in English's position because it doesn't have the geopolitical power..' It's sort of unwinnable in that if one shows that people just don't take it up, the default explanation is always 'because of geopolitical power'.
In any case the view that some languages are just easier isn't subjective. Depending on the base language of course. It's not a leap of faith to see why Dutch people and Germans and Perhaps Scandinavians would be more inclined towards English (as they are) than French or Italian.
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Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby Iversen » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:17 pm

And now I'm wearing my moderator hat: we are beginning to receive complaints about this discussion, and maybe it's about time to cool down - you guys are not going to agree on anything regarding the role of Esperanto anytime soon ...
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby LupCenușiu » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:18 pm

Le Baron wrote:However, isn't an overriding argument in this thread that English isn't simply the product of a benign adoption, but rather that it is forced by imperialist pressure, economic-cultural? A soft power version of forced implementation.


It is, frequency of usage being a consequence of this soft power. I would personally second guess the "imperialist pressure" choice of words as it sounds a lot like old history books from Eastern Europe, but that's me. Still, as we speak, English is a choice for most people that use it. Imagine a world where it would be mandatory, by decree.
Le Baron wrote:
LupCenușiu wrote:Of course, in a utopian future a colang could be used also, but then you have to increase the utopia factor by imagining people willingly put in some extra effort to learn it (and before, that it was a general agreement to construct it and use it). So, maybe in a future far, far away...

Well that has to assume there is a motivating factor for adoption. Since the overwhelming one throughout history has been either that the prevailing forces used or favoured a particular language, and that people do it on the basis of economic advantage, the argument becomes convoluted and quite circular.

In this sense Esperanto's promotion is already totally benign and voluntary.


Yes, that's why I believe this version would take some paradigm shifting at individual level too. Possible, given enough time, but not that likely. So yeah, to wrap up my Seldon wannabe divagations and actually do something productive for my current position in the space-time continuum, I fully agree with your last sentence. No secret agenda behind Esperanto, and is just like another language. You can look at it, try it, enjoy it or drop it.
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Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby Iversen » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:21 pm

Amen.
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Re: Why does people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:44 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:It is, frequency of usage being a consequence of this soft power. I would personally second guess the "imperialist pressure" choice of words as it sounds a lot like old history books from Eastern Europe, but that's me. Still, as we speak, English is a choice for most people that use it. Imagine a world where it would be mandatory, by decree.

I don't think I'm in disagreement at all regarding that last paragraph or the initial sentence of the above paragraph. I'd only want to address the above generally, since it remains a completely circular argument. People want it both ways: that English is the lingua-franca by means of soft-power/economic power, but also that it's a choice to take it up rather than coercion. It can't be both. Having to take up English in order to meet the level of domination is not a true choice.
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Re: Why do people still study Esperanto?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:45 pm

Iversen wrote:And now I'm wearing my moderator hat: we are beginning to receive complaints about this discussion, and maybe it's about time to cool down - you guys are not going to agree on anything regarding the role of Esperanto anytime soon ...

Well I haven't complained, despite being insulted. And I'm not going to complain. Maybe those complaining could think before firing off arrows if they don't like return fire?
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