Did you also think that at some languages the same CEFR levels were not equivalent in Practise/Use?

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jimmy
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Did you also think that at some languages the same CEFR levels were not equivalent in Practise/Use?

Postby jimmy » Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:02 pm

Hi,
I am planning to measure my MSA language with ALPT in summer season, I think inshallah I will be able to obtain C1 or B2. These days I think it is intro B2 and can support this with some online exams/tools.

But here is an interesting result in my hand: The B2 for MSA does not mean the same usage for B2 English in my opinion.

To be more clear: I can say that while I believe I could explain almost everything well in English (B2) , this might be NOT a case for MSA.

But of course,This may also contain a bit prejudice , because while English speaking may be "Good" and listening may be "fair" for English, the vice versa may be valid for MSA. Meanwhile, I cannot speak confidently about this point because I have not completed all the works for MSA. But I wonder your ideas.
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Re: Did you also think that at some languages the same CEFR levels were not equivalent in Practise/Use?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:31 pm

I think it is the opposite. A B2 German speaker and a B2 Arabic speaker should be equivalents in the sense of handling the same range of situations, with the same level of spontaneity, fluidity, and accuracy. However, the B2 Arabic speaker will have needed much more time and efforts to get to the same point.
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Re: Did you also think that at some languages the same CEFR levels were not equivalent in Practise/Use?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:11 pm

Cavesa wrote:However, the B2 Arabic speaker will have needed much more time and efforts to get to the same point.

Depending upon where they started from.
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Re: Did you also think that at some languages the same CEFR levels were not equivalent in Practise/Use?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:32 pm

Le Baron wrote:
Cavesa wrote:However, the B2 Arabic speaker will have needed much more time and efforts to get to the same point.

Depending upon where they started from.


True. I was counting with an average native of any european language as the default. But it's absolutely true that natives of some other languages will see it differently.
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Re: Did you also think that at some languages the same CEFR levels were not equivalent in Practise/Use?

Postby galaxyrocker » Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:36 am

Theoretically they should be, but in practice they're not. The Irish B2 was easier, comparatively, and asked less vocab and grammar wise, than the French B1 practice exam I looked at. Not to mention the speaking task was much more straightforward and easier. So while they should be the same, the official tests often don't match up well. Likely due to how different test makers interpret the criteria.
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Re: Did you also think that at some languages the same CEFR levels were not equivalent in Practise/Use?

Postby german2k01 » Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:39 pm

One thing I have observed Germans, English speakers, and Urdu speakers use the same collocations for describing the same thoughts. I guess it is the same for other languages. Humans do very predictable things in a day. If you are well aware of your native language to a good extent, you can master the relevant expressions in your target languages quickly. Thus, reaching fluency in a short time.
Example:

English speaker: Thank God!
Urdu Speaker: Allah Ka shukar! (as a native always heard these words as one expression/collocation)
German Speaker: Gott sei Dank! (hearing it as one expression/collocation).

Natives speak in chunks. When it comes to learning a new language I am not sure if has something to do with the difficulty of the language itself or if it is just adults who approach the language wrong or totally different. Hence, saying that X language is more difficult to learn than Y language.
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Re: Did you also think that at some languages the same CEFR levels were not equivalent in Practise/Use?

Postby verdastelo » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:39 am

german2k01 wrote:One thing I have observed Germans, English speakers, and Urdu speakers use the same collocations for describing the same thoughts. I guess it is the same for other languages. Humans do very predictable things in a day. If you are well aware of your native language to a good extent, you can master the relevant expressions in your target languages quickly. Thus, reaching fluency in a short time.


That’s certainly not true. Literal translation from Hindustani (Hindi-Urdu) into English is a reason the English spoken in the Indian Subcontinent sounds alien. “Describing the same thoughts” is good Hindustani but I think that “expressing the same ideas” sounds more natural in English. A native speaker can confirm.

One of the first principles, if you want to sound like a native in a foreign language, is to not translate literally from your mother tongue. Think of a few everyday phrases in Hindustani. They don't translate literally into English.

  • पानी चला गया। (pānī calā gayā) is not “The water has gone.” but “There’s no water.”
  • यह कुत्ता कुछ नही कहता। (yah kuttā kuch nahī kahatā) doesn’t mean “This dog says nothing.” but “This dog doesn’t bite.”
  • खाते पीते घर का। (khāte pīte ghar kā) isn’t “A man from a family that eats and drinks.” but “A man from a prosperous family.”
  • वह पुलिसवाला मेरा मामा नही लगता। (vah pulisvālā merā māmā nahī lagtā) is literally “That police officer isn’t my uncle.” An English equivalent can be an exclamatory question: “Why would that police officer help me?”

If there is something that you can translate literally from Hindustani into English, then it’s more of an exception than a rule. Literal translation is an art and one has to be a master like Chinua Achebe to write: “Among the Igbo the art of conversation is regarded very highly, and proverbs are the palm-oil with which words are eaten.”
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