From reading/study to speaking...

General discussion about learning languages
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Le Baron
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From reading/study to speaking...

Postby Le Baron » Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:56 pm

The bit to watch in this video (though you can watch all of it of you want to) is 'Thomas' from about 14:32. Thomas is Slovakian, but has a crack at speaking Latin with theatrical Luke. He's studying to be a priest, but he says 'this is the first time I've spoken Latin'. So that's my pet theory out the window. Or maybe he's a rare exception? Or he's fibbing and has done a bit before.

Have you ever only read (and listened perhaps) a language then managed to get along with speaking it? I tried this in Russian many years ago and it was hard to convert what I knew from the page into the spoken word. Not impossible though it lacks in delivery.

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BeaP
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Re: From reading/study to speaking...

Postby BeaP » Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:08 pm

When I studied Italian at a university language course, we used an old-school textbook (Katerinov). Every lesson looked like this: read Italian text, translate it into Hungarian, note down new words, discuss new grammar in Hungarian, do grammar exercises, discuss the solutions.

We never ever spoke freely in Italian about a topic, never did role-play or imagine ourselves in a communicative situation. However, we read out loud the reading texts and the grammar exercises. Pronunciation was corrected by the teacher (non-native).

When I went to Italy, I was able to communicative in every situation, never switched to English, was always understood. I didn't discuss the economy or the greenhouse effect with anyone, but I could get by. And I didn't read high-brow literature either, so I had the impression that my skills were around the same level: weak B1.

Some important details:
I studied from the Katerinov book a lot. I knew the example sentences and most of the exercises by heart. (I think methods like Glossika are based on something similar. You repeat some basic structures or sentences a million times until they become automatic.)
The Hungarian phoneme system is relatively large, Italian pronunciation is not difficult for a Hungarian.
I started to speak foreign languages at an early age (at least compared to a lot of other Hungarians), and I had the chance to speak to native speakers of English and German. Thanks to this I feel absolutely no anxiety when I have to speak in a foreign language. For me it's natural.
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Re: From reading/study to speaking...

Postby golyplot » Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:57 pm

BeaP wrote:Thanks to this I feel absolutely no anxiety when I have to speak in a foreign language. For me it's natural.


I think this is the most important part, and it's the part that I haven't been able to crack.

As a native English speaker, I've pretty much never encountered a situation in which it wouldn't be more convenient to just use English. And when I already spent my entire life using English, it is incredibly difficult to force myself to struggle through a foreign language where I don't confidently know how to say anything and will make mistakes constantly and so on. Especially if you're talking to someone who probably knows English well anyway.

I'm reminded of the 3:37-4:06 segment of this classic Cyprien video. I guess I never learned how to talk with my hands like he apparently does.

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Re: From reading/study to speaking...

Postby Le Baron » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:39 pm

golyplot wrote:I think this is the most important part, and it's the part that I haven't been able to crack.

As a native English speaker, I've pretty much never encountered a situation in which it wouldn't be more convenient to just use English. And when I already spent my entire life using English, it is incredibly difficult to force myself to struggle through a foreign language where I don't confidently know how to say anything and will make mistakes constantly and so on. Especially if you're talking to someone who probably knows English well anyway.

Like BeaP I also had the opportunity to speak another language early (before having the chance to think about being self-conscious) so it does help, though likely not in all future cases. However the situations where non-native English people speak English to accommodate someone do tend to wind down if the other people around also speak the same common language.

Just recently the Netherlands was ranked #1 in English proficiency on the 2022 'English Proficiency Index'. I have no idea who these people are or how they formulate and rate these tests, but I will say the reality doesn't quite match the impression at every turn. You have to tip your hat to the level of proficiency here, or at least the broad spread of people able to function at a proficient enough level, though it does create this myth that everyone is at a really high level, when in fact they aren't. Some are, many are just not; especially in reading and writing. Which is why I wonder how the testing is formulated. That's for another discussion though.

The point is that here you could get away with speaking only English, but even despite the above results it won't get you everywhere. It will get you a sandwich in a shop, a friendly person showing the tourist sights, and lots of other functional things. It will even get you some conversation, perhaps on some time-limited travel jaunt a bit removed from real daily life, but only so far. Outside of that people just talk to each other in the local language and if you don't know it you're closed out. In that sense you just have to know how to listen and speak or be closed out. Plenty of places have far less willingness to default to English, which is always better for learners. Whilst at the same time some places, e.g. France according to many students, have people who hypercorrect you and would rather exercise their middling English skills than listen to you learning to get functional. That even happens here in NL! You have to be hard with people like this. If it's someone you'll never meet again, finish the conversation and forget about them. If it's someone claiming to be a friend they need to know they're not helping by speaking English. Mostly it comes down to the boldness and tenacity of the learner. To be willing to endure the pain and sometimes humiliation of semi-functionality for a time. Defaulting to a more convenient native language becomes inconvenient if the goal is to be talking in the TL. There always has to be a pressing need in order to get you talking, otherwise ti can always be postponed 'until I improve'.
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Re: From reading/study to speaking...

Postby gsbod » Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:21 pm

golyplot wrote:I think this is the most important part, and it's the part that I haven't been able to crack.

As a native English speaker, I've pretty much never encountered a situation in which it wouldn't be more convenient to just use English. And when I already spent my entire life using English, it is incredibly difficult to force myself to struggle through a foreign language where I don't confidently know how to say anything and will make mistakes constantly and so on. Especially if you're talking to someone who probably knows English well anyway.


Well, I definitely did not get used to speaking a foreign language at an early age. I learned French at high school, went on a couple of family holidays in France as a child, but still as a teenager and in my twenties I wouldn't have had the confidence to attempt to converse in a foreign language with anyone.

I think what helped me was a combination of getting used to using a foreign language in really low stakes environments like language exchanges and the kind of classes where exam results don't matter, and just getting older and more confident in general.

So yes, there is hope for those of us who didn't grow up using foreign languages.
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