Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

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jeff_lindqvist
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:44 pm

golyplot wrote:You seem to assume that anyone who can read and listen to the TL can automatically also speak it, which is very much not correct.


Talk about timing. Recent topic:
From reading/study to speaking
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby FRAnglais1919 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:39 am

golyplot wrote:
You seem to assume that anyone who can read and listen to the TL can automatically also speak it, which is very much not correct.


I can't imagine someone understanding B1+ level material in listening and writing, and not be able to utter a sentence themselves.
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:44 am

FRAnglais1919 wrote:I can't imagine someone understanding B1+ level material in listening and writing, and not be able to utter a sentence themselves.

Why not? It's like any divide between theory and practice. Have you never been in the situation where you're familiar with how something is supposed to be done, but then unable to perform it yourself in real time?

The reasons may vary, though often with languages learned as an adult it is the usual psychological blockages of 'feeling foolish', unprepared and unable to communicate in the way you're accustomed. And that some can tolerate this better than others.

Listening and reading/writing are controlled situations. B1+ 'material' is made deliberately to accommodate you, otherwise they'd just slap ordinary speech and writing in front of you. So it doesn't really match most given real situations. So while you'd understand some and according to your tolerance for self-consciousness might be able to speak a little, all it takes is a few moments of incomprehensibility to send you down a vortex. Until speech becomes a habit it's a rather difficult chore which you have to consciously think about whilst also trying to interpret free-form speech full of surprises all around you.
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby golyplot » Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:05 pm

In fact, it's the natural result of input-only study, and it is pretty much the situation I am in with all my languages.

It's not just a matter of "B1 material being made to accommodate you" either. I think one could be able to read and listen to native material well and still barely be able to speak the language.
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:34 pm

golyplot wrote:In fact, it's the natural result of input-only study, and it is pretty much the situation I am in with all my languages.

It's not just a matter of "B1 material being made to accommodate you" either. I think one could be able to read and listen to native material well and still barely be able to speak the language.


This is very true. I can think of at least two languages where I have very good comprehension, but which I don't speak. And then a couple of languages I've actually studied, and understand very well (on a good day... :oops: ).
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:04 pm

golyplot wrote:In fact, it's the natural result of input-only study, and it is pretty much the situation I am in with all my languages.

It's not just a matter of "B1 material being made to accommodate you" either. I think one could be able to read and listen to native material well and still barely be able to speak the language.

I would agree. Though with the latter, where you're much more confortable with native-level material, you have a much better chance 'in the field'. The remaining obstacles are the psychological fears and developing a speaking habit.
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby leosmith » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:12 am

I watched a little of the videos and found myself agreeing with some things/disagreeing with others. Then I read the comments here and realized I hadn’t watched enough to form a valid opinion. I’m definitely Krashenite Kryptonite.

Regarding the OP though, I’ve taken over 2000 italki lessons in 10 languages since 2014. I’ve taken another 500 lessons on Language Crush, and several hundred online lessons with tutors I met on Craiglist before 2014. I’ve done tons of online language exchanges too via platforms like SharedTalk. I mention all of these because, for me, they all had the same purpose – to let me practice conversing with a native speaker.

When it comes to language learning, I do everything by myself except converse. And so the only job of my teachers is to converse with me. I don’t like corrections from tutors because it detracts from the purpose of the lesson – getting comfortable in the language. Because I learn everything on my own, I hear many of my own errors when I speak. The more I speak, the fewer my errors. Correcting me just distracts me and makes me less fluid. This is especially true in the beginning. I feel I’ve got so many balls in the air, I don’t need someone adding more. The better I get, the more open I am to correction.
golyplot wrote:Suppose you've already studied reading and listening extensively and just want to develop basic conversational skills. What's the best way to do that on iTalki? So far I've done two trial lessons, but I've been pretty frustrated each time.
Here is a generic note that I send to all my teachers the same time I send a lesson request:
Hi {Teacher X}. I'm an intermediate student. I'd like a 100% {Language X} conversation with no corrections and no fixed topics if possible. Thanks :)
99% of them agree to this, and the result is a low stress conversation that lets me become more comfortable. We talk about whatever comes to mind. I’ve done thousands of these, and improvement is really fast when I do the following: During the conversation, write down all vocabulary/grammar points that the teacher uses but I don’t understand AND all the vocabulary/grammar points that I want to use but don’t know. After the lesson, I memorize these items, then put them in Anki. Before the next class, I do the Anki reviews. If possible, do a 60 min class every day or at least a few times a week, and repeat this exercise.
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby s_allard » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:38 am

leosmith wrote:

When it comes to language learning, I do everything by myself except converse. And so the only job of my teachers is to converse with me. I don’t like corrections from tutors because it detracts from the purpose of the lesson – getting comfortable in the language. Because I learn everything on my own, I hear many of my own errors when I speak. The more I speak, the fewer my errors. Correcting me just distracts me and makes me less fluid. This is especially true in the beginning. I feel I’ve got so many balls in the air, I don’t need someone adding more. The better I get, the more open I am to correction.

Here is a generic note that I send to all my teachers the same time I send a lesson request:
Hi {Teacher X}. I'm an intermediate student. I'd like a 100% {Language X} conversation with no corrections and no fixed topics if possible. Thanks :)
99% of them agree to this, and the result is a low stress conversation that lets me become more comfortable. We talk about whatever comes to mind. I’ve done thousands of these, and improvement is really fast when I do the following: During the conversation, write down all vocabulary/grammar points that the teacher uses but I don’t understand AND all the vocabulary/grammar points that I want to use but don’t know. After the lesson, I memorize these items, then put them in Anki. Before the next class, I do the Anki reviews. If possible, do a 60 min class every day or at least a few times a week, and repeat this exercise.


I found this post quite interesting because it is very much the opposite of what I do with tutors. I’m not saying that there is any thing wrong with the suggestions in the post. It’s the results that count. It only goes to say that there are many ways to skin a cat.

In my approach correction is paramount because I believe this is the key to accuracy. By accuracy I mean two things. On the one hand there is pronunciation and grammatical correctness : I want to say things the best way possible and I want to make sure I use the right word forms in the proper order.

On the other hand I want to use the most appropriate vocabulary for the context. This is the discourse level. For this I carefully listen to how native speakers formulate their phrases and I try to imitate them.

I therefore crave correction because correction means that something is wrong or could be improved. The problem here is that for some people, rightly or wrongly, being corrected means stopping the flow of the conversation and preventing fluidity from developing. My fear is that if I’m not corrected I will develop and solidify bad habits or fossilizations.

For me the question is how to be corrected. There are a couple of different situations here. Number one, let’s say I use the wrong word form. I say neuron in Spanish. The tutor stops me and says neurona. Number two, I am not sure of the form to use. Let’s say that I think I should use the imperfect subjunctive form of a verb in Spanish but I’m not sure of the form to use. So I stop dead in my tracks and I explore various forms until I find the right one.

In both cases what I like to do is repeat the whole corrected sentence or passage a couple of times until I get the whole thing right fluently. Of course I take notes to review later on, and I will make a point of deliberately using the corrected form and variations as soon as possible to reinforce the learning process.

I don’t see this as preventing the acquisition of fluidity. Quite the contrary, I see this as enhancing fluidity in that it is conducive to acquiring accurate fluidity whereby you develop true confidence in speaking well because you are totally sure that what comes out of your mouth is correct.

I know that this sounds more appropriate at advanced levels of proficiency but I also believe that even in early stages one can nip bad habits in the bud without necessarily making speaking laborious and boring.
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby leosmith » Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:28 am

s_allard wrote:In my approach correction is paramount because I believe this is the key to accuracy.
When you say the key to accuracy, you make it sound like nothing else we do improves accuracy.
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Re: Italki- A worthy investment or a waste of money?

Postby s_allard » Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:46 am

leosmith wrote:
s_allard wrote:In my approach correction is paramount because I believe this is the key to accuracy.
When you say the key to accuracy, you make it sound like nothing else we do improves accuracy.


Not at all. As I mentioned, correction is the key to accuracy in my approach but this is obviously not the only approach to achieving proficiency.
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