The one language/many languages problem

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Le Baron
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The one language/many languages problem

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:42 pm

As is likely clear from my rantings here I am not a great fan of juggling many languages at a learning stage. I find disadvantages such as: interference; available time spread too thinly (thus leading to limited and superficial learning and development); loss of focus and motivation; burnout...

Some of this may be limits of my own character and ability, whereas other people have a better capacity for organisation of many languages and an ability to extract more.

For me the 'problem' is I find that unless a person has a great deal of free time, and can put it to work, it's really very difficult to properly develop a language beyond surface learning. Just one language. On the other hand if you spend several years really developing a single language and this is the general methodology used, tackling just a small handful is a pursuit that can take half your life (or all of it depending upon how long you have!).

So I'd like to hear views and arguments in favour of learning more than one language at a time. I actually want to be convinced, even if I'm somewhat sceptical and even if I can be told: 'it's up to you, do as you like'.
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby BeaP » Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:38 pm

I think it depends on your age and circumstances.

For a high school student studying 2-3 languages at the same time can have a lot of advantages. The languages I started at a relatively early age (English, German and Italian) are somehow deeper rooted in me. I use them in a more automatic, natural way and I can't really forget the basics. This can be a consequence of classroom studies and frequent testing as well, I don't know. Anyway, discipline and structure are huge benefits of school, and they make studying multiple languages a realistic possibility for most unless the teachers and the methods are very bad.

On the other hand, as an adult I find it impossible to stick to any schedule, because either something unforeseen happens or I don't have the energy to study. I only feel significant improvements when I concentrate on one language at least for a couple of months. One day it's just 5 minutes, the next day 2 hours, I can't really plan in advance. For a very disciplined person (not me) it's absolutely possible to study many languages with the right method: textbooks, word lists and grammar charts are probably better than comprehensible input. You need to be very focused and goal-oriented.
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby garyb » Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:40 pm

This is probably one of the most discussed and debated subjects on here, although I think it's an interesting one to hear about from the point of view of experienced learners, rather than the typical "adult monolingual beginners" for whom it's quite well established that trying to learn multiple languages at once pretty much never ends well.

Anyway I'm with you and find there's barely enough time to study one enough to see satisfactory progress, never mind several. Even when I made much more time for language learning than I do now, I generally only formally studied one language at a time and just kept maintaining or very slowly progressing the others with input and speaking.

I've seen people claim that they can learn several languages more quickly and efficiently than an average learner can learn one, and that there are positive factors like "synergy" that make it more efficient and compensate for negative ones like interference and spreading yourself thin. These people have tended to be young and have a lot of free time, and even at that I'm also a little sceptical, especially about the synergy part which I've found to be overstated. Maybe as you say though it depends on the individual.

But then my results aren't particularly impressive for the time I've put in, so I'm not going to claim to know the right way.
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby snoopy » Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:44 pm

I think there is only a problem if one assumes that all language learners have one goal in mind.

The description of the goal in your post ("to properly develop a language beyond surface learning") is also rather vague because "proper" is not a clear-cut word, and it can easily make it impossible to agree on the definition or to achieve it. See debates about "fluency" on that.

But ambiguous or not, that is not something I aspire to. Actually, after years of speaking three languages on the daily basis, I could say I don't command any language 'properly' anymore. Irregularly mingling with two more languages is exactly what I want at the moment :D

How do you see that?
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:54 pm

snoopy wrote:I think there is only a problem if one assumes that all language learners have one goal in mind.

The description of the goal in your post ("to properly develop a language beyond surface learning") is also rather vague because "proper" is not a clear-cut word, and it can easily make it impossible to agree on the definition or to achieve it. See debates about "fluency" on that.

But ambiguous or not, that is not something I aspire to, and irregularly mingling with two languages is exactly what I want at the moment :D

How do you see that?

I would ask what it means to 'irregularly mingle' with two (or more) languages?

'Proper' is a pretty much clearly-defined word, though the issue is pointing to what constitutes 'properly developed'. I think that no matter what the problems are with nomenclature and defining terminology, we all know what it means to have actual facility in a language as opposed to being in a perpetual state of learning or at a stage where it isn't really functional outside of safe environments.
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby RyanSmallwood » Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:06 pm

I take a two pronged approach, I have one main language I am focusing on with 80% of my time (Mandarin currently), that I want to get to a high level of unassisted listening and reading, and then the rest of the time I spend on strategic dabbling both for enjoyment and potential future projects.

To me there's two really rewarding areas of language learning for return on time invested, the very beginning dabbling stage where a language goes from incomprehensible to sort of familiar for very little time, and the high level stage where you can use the language without frustration. The place to avoid is waffling around the intermediate stage, where you can put a lot of time and energy without as much tangible significant changes in experience. So unless I decide to make language my priority focus language, it stays in the dabbling stage.

Here's a few principles I stick to to try to make the dabbling as useful as possible.

1) Listening Decks in Anki - There's a lot of information in basic sentences to absorb, especially in distant languages, phonology and grammar/sentence structure and it takes a while to soak all the details in. I think going all in on a new language is actually kind of ineffective because until your brain is really familiar with the sounds and structure its tricky to absorb a lot of new vocabulary. Just listening to a few minutes a day to a new language over a year or more can go along way to familiarizing yourself with how new languages works and get a good foundation. This I think makes it a lot easier to hit the ground running if I decide I want to take the language further in the future, and if I don't its a fun way to prevent wanderlust by getting a regular daily sampling of languages I'm interested in.

2) Laddering / L2 -> L3 Study - I always keep an eye out for good L2 -> L3 resources, as it makes it a lot easier to justify random excursions into whatever language catches my fancy. I don't really count using an L2 for laddering as "studying" the L2, but it does help build automaticity and cement things in long term memory, and it can be a good way to keep a language studied in the past in use. Someone with decent French reading could really cement it going through a bunch of Assimil courses. This is also another reason I enjoy the Listening-Reading method because it opens up a lot of possibilities for language laddering.

3) Lowering the Bar for Enjoyment - Above I mention that I tend to keep languages in the dabbling phase if they're not my main focus, but with the right resources, sometimes opportunities open up to enjoy pushing them up through the intermediate phase, but the key here is that this shouldn't be "study time" but only things I want to do in the language. Again this is another reason why I'm a big fan of the Listening-Reading method, not only as a method for bringing a language to a higher level of reading, but also because it lets me enjoy language earlier and combine language learning with my enjoyment of reading, so I'm not throwing my other interests away to learn more languages. I think there are other things that open up to, for example, even if I'm not a high enough level to communicate with my dabbling languages, when I talk to people online they can share memes, videos, and articles with a bit of lookups, so even having a basic familiarity means I feel like there are fewer barriers to communication. Also if I were to watch a TV show or a movie, even if I couldn't turn off the subtitles I would still hear some of and get a flavor for the original dialog. If there are certain tv shows or books I revisit enough with the help of translation eventually I'll become familiar enough to enjoy them without the translation. Languages also interact with each other, so knowing a bit of Greek or Latin gives a new perspective on English and Romance languages, knowing a bit of Cantonese from Mandarin makes certain influences of Middle Chinese on Korean more noticeable. Historical forms of Modern languages also are really easy to appreciate from the beginning, and can further highlight connections between dialects and languages and some language work as bridges lowering the barrier to entry on others.


So I'm not really sure long term where I'll end up with my language learning, but I'm very happy with the languages I've put time into, and I wouldn't be bothered if I only end up using only 2-4 at a high level. Learning Mandarin and Cantonese might be my last big excursion into a new language family if I don't have the time to commit to "pure study" down the road. But also in addition to the main Germanic and Romance languages I've studied I can also appreciate a whole range of modern and historical dialects and all kinds of literature. I wouldn't claim to have any sort of real ability in Ancient Greek, but Aristotle's language is simple enough and I'm familiar enough with some of his texts in translation that I can work through them in the original and enjoy them on another level and if people keep recording reconstructed audiobooks for it, I might be able to appreciate more authors and maybe eventually end up having something like actual knowledge of the language.

There's other language families I'm interested in, but don't currently have the time to study and very realistically I might not get to them for a long time, if ever. But I have the tools/resources to chip away at them as time with my current languages opens up, so I don't see any reason why a decade or two from now I wouldn't have some modest foundation in some other language families. And it might not ever progress beyond that, but more and more good language resources are being created all the time, so who knows what opportunities there will be to study more languages through my hobbies and interests. Again, I'm perfectly happy with the languages I use now if I never get time for others, but with the right long term dabbling strategies there's definitely the possibility of using more languages down the road if the right opportunity presents itself.
Last edited by RyanSmallwood on Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby LupCenușiu » Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:11 pm

Le Baron wrote: I think that no matter what the problems are with nomenclature and defining terminology, we all know what it means to have actual facility in a language as opposed to being in a perpetual state of learning or at a stage where it isn't really functional outside of safe environments.


People have a tendency of fixating on details, missing the forest because of the trees and all that. Could be a refined form of procrastinating, after all. A person can spend a lot of time indulging in very precise definitions and measurements of a fruit, extrapolating its properties for a whole class of fruits and making plans how to deal with theoretical iterations of fruits. Another decides that knowing what parts are edible, how to access those parts and maybe how to prepare and integrate them in the meals should suffice. Because, after a certain amount of time, one person is still contemplating fruit theory, while the other had a tasty bite. Who gained more? Depends if you are a botanist or just hungry...

Reminds me of a very popular group of conversations I stumbled upon while digging through HTLAL, across quite a few topics. The problem of selecting a core vocabulary to master, so you can be as effective as possible. Good idea, drowned in the swamp of technical ways. While I didn't read all the posts (I'd say there were thousands), the general image was of a monument of redundancy. Yes, a core vocabulary is necessary. Yes, is not sufficient to progress past a certain point, has to be expanded eventually. Yes, you better learn more frequent words and concepts. No, you cannot select a perfect core, yes, you can select a decent one, and decent should do, as perfection should not be pursued in such an ephemeral construct. 1000 words are enough for a start, and using various frequency lists or making your own from courses and personal preferences works. How long would it take to learn 1000 words (as in 'headwords" )? Two months? A month? Maybe two weeks if you are gifted, dedicated, and the language is not that hard? A relaxed weekend if you are Iversen?

The discussion ran for years, at that point would've been more practical simply experimenting in a select number of languages, with various characteristics. It is a guilty pleasure to spend more time checking your tools and arranging them, perhaps comparing with other toolkits than actually using them. I'm as guilty as it can be in this matter, so I decided that if any research would take more resources (time, energy) than would save in the best case scenario, is not worth doing. I'd rather get the general direction, some landmarks on the map, a good compass and a good pair of boots and enjoy the hike than carefully study and prepare every detail, every step, and then admiring a perfect route while laying on my couch, because vacation is over.
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:15 pm

Good argument/reasons Mr Smallwood. That was a good post.
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby Sae » Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:45 pm

I am one of those, if I am not careful, I'll try to do too much at once and already in say the last couple of months I've gone: "maybe Turkish is worth learning, Polish too, Kazakh could be fun, I wouldn't mind learning Welsh, Irish might be neat. What about Finnish?" and this is while I have languages I am already trying to learn. So it's a voice I have to shut off else I'd be all over the place.

But in learning 2 and almost 3 languages I am kind of compromising with that voice. I forced myself to focus only on Vietnamese until I got to a certain level before I tried something else and limit to what I know I'm going to use.

However, finding time and burn out is a fair disadvantage you highlight. And finding time is what I struggle with. So progress is slower than it could be. Yet progress is still progress. I guess the biggest challenge for me is doing the "hour a day" people recommend, because when I finish work, most of the time my brain is not up for more stimulation. I am often using my brain a lot at work, so it's usually just wanting to wind down when it's all over. So I've been gradually just using that time for input so it's not wasted, whether it's watching something in a target language with subtitles or listening to music in that language.

With the juggling of the two, I think it helps that the two main focus languages are so different and that my language levels with them are so far apart. Though admittedly when there's Mongolian I don't know, my brain tries to find Vietnamese I know instead, but it hasn't yet hindered it. But I've consciously picked out of the two which gets the highest priority, but make sure I am spending time in the week with both, but on different days, so I guess I can try to be "Vietnamese mode" one day and "Mongolian mode" the next, whilst maybe there are better methods, given some people stay with their target languages daily, but I don't want the two associating each other despite being vastly different languages.

However, my main source of motivation does end up being the fact I am seeing a tutor for each and it helps keep me accountable to. If I've not practiced, it shows. And they're both great for encouragement and setting tasks. So as long as I've at least done these in a week, then at least I am making progress even if it's a bad week.
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Re: The one language/many languages problem

Postby Lemus » Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:11 pm

You are undoubtedly sacrificing efficiency in deciding to focus on more than one at once, rather than going sequentially, but if you are a hobbyist (as most of this forum at least professes to be) then I don't see why that is necessarily a bad thing. I would much rather enjoyably learn three languages over the span of ten years than efficiently but unenjoyably learn them sequentially in five.

If you want to focus on ten languages at once and realize that means you will probably never speak any of them well, but you are powered by sheer linguistic curiosity then by all means go for it. As long as you do not have false expectations.

Where it seems people run into problems is when they want to be a "polgyglot" or whatever as their goal. Such a goal is the achievement of a lifetime and not something that should be rushed. I'm sure it can for someone with mountains of free time and endless motivation but I have neither. Very few ultimately do. Some of those learners transition into a slower but more enjoyable pace and others just burn out and are not heard from again.

That being said I have learned that I cannot personally "focus" on more than one at once to an extent I am satisfied with. For me, that means active reading, adding cards into Anki or working on grammar. Passive activities in others are not a problem (reviewing Anki cards, watching TV shows, listening to podcasts, etc). I have at earlier points in my life worked actively on two or three at once and it worked reasonably well but I do not have that kind of single-minded devotion anymore and am unwilling to spend hours a day on languages. No doubt there are some of this forum who can and do and I wish them all the best. That is just not for me anymore.
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