Which Romance language should I pick?

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Marluxia88
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby Marluxia88 » Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:05 pm

DaveAgain wrote:
Marluxia88 wrote:As for French, I've always longed for this language and French culture (tons of films, series, I even download anime in French dub or with subtitles), what with its charm and a special place in our history because it affected Russian just as much as it did English, even though in our case it happened ages after.
I'll vote for French then :-)

France seems to have been a popular destination for Russian emigres after the fall of the Tsar too, so there would be a Russians-in-France history path for you to follow if you wanted to.


Yes, king, yes!!! I've made up my mind! It's French! I'm gonna learn it! It's better to learn the language I even have dreams about speaking it fluently rather than something beautiful, but from zero level and without much of a cultural affinity.
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby Sae » Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:55 am

Marluxia88 wrote:
DaveAgain wrote:
Marluxia88 wrote:As for French, I've always longed for this language and French culture (tons of films, series, I even download anime in French dub or with subtitles), what with its charm and a special place in our history because it affected Russian just as much as it did English, even though in our case it happened ages after.
I'll vote for French then :-)

France seems to have been a popular destination for Russian emigres after the fall of the Tsar too, so there would be a Russians-in-France history path for you to follow if you wanted to.


Yes, king, yes!!! I've made up my mind! It's French! I'm gonna learn it! It's better to learn the language I even have dreams about speaking it fluently rather than something beautiful, but from zero level and without much of a cultural affinity.


As they say, listen to your heart. So it sounds like you've made the right choice.

Although I've never committed to learning it, it's a language with quite a nice aesthetic IMO, with phrases like "je deteste ton visage", you'll know the most elegant and beautiful ways of telling somebody that you hate their face...I only know how to say stupid things in French.
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby Kullman » Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:51 pm

Try galician... lol
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:31 am

Marluxia88 wrote:Then, with a heavy heart, I gave up on Spanish because it's too much of a "standard" choice for a foreign language...

It's French! I'm gonna learn it! It's better to learn the language I even have dreams about speaking it fluently rather than something beautiful, but from zero level and without much of a cultural affinity.

That's an unusual reason to discount Spanish; it may be the best inroad into romance languages. Reading your other reply it looked like Portuguese was well suited.

The reasons for French seem to me ones that will fizzle out over time. Especially as difficulty picks up. A lot of learners seem to take up French based upon stereotypes around the languages.
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby emk » Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:02 pm

Marluxia88 wrote:Yes, king, yes!!! I've made up my mind! It's French! I'm gonna learn it! It's better to learn the language I even have dreams about speaking it fluently rather than something beautiful, but from zero level and without much of a cultural affinity.

Go for it!

French looks like one of the harder romance languages when you're just a beginner, but most of that is an illusion. The thing that looks intimidating is the French system of writing and pronunciation. But it usually only takes a month or so before you figure out how to pronounce almost any written French word. French pronunciation should quickly become easier than English's endless exceptions.

French grammar also has a reputation for being tough, but a lot of that is caused by people who try to memorize a book of rules. If you instead read and listen to French, most of the grammar will eventually make intuitive sense. In fact, French has a fairly simple verb system for a romance language and you can do almost everything you'd need to do with about 4 tenses. And the French subjunctive is relatively straightforward, because you only need to use it in a limited number of situations, all of which are completely predictable.

And of course, French has a wide variety of excellent media of all types.
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:00 pm

emk wrote:French pronunciation should quickly become easier than English's endless exceptions.

This seems off to me and perhaps one of those stereotypes I mentioned. French pronunciation is perhaps the number one complaint with regard to French; even their neighbours the Spanish and Italians complain about it! Practically every other language around it, even if they aren't very orthographic, pronounces most of the letters, and especially endings. And the same problem clearly extends to listening. At the language cafe I go to it's pretty much all the French learners ever complain about.
This thing about English and its exceptions... They're not 'endless'. In fact the most common ones have been rolled-out so often by now they're getting to be common knowledge. There's really not that many and once you know the word, you know the word and its pronunciation. This is all offset by the lack of a case system and far easier verb conjugation for common verbs.

I've yet to meet the person who starts French and English as a TL2 (especially an 'adult') and nails French pronunciation over English.
emk wrote:French grammar also has a reputation for being tough, but a lot of that is caused by people who try to memorize a book of rules. If you instead read and listen to French, most of the grammar will eventually make intuitive sense. In fact, French has a fairly simple verb system for a romance language and you can do almost everything you'd need to do with about 4 tenses. And the French subjunctive is relatively straightforward, because you only need to use it in a limited number of situations, all of which are completely predictable.

Probably everyone would agree with this in principle, I do. There's too much faffing among teachers and students around stuff you don't really need, but also not focusing on where the real impediments are in French. And there are impediments. Another widely-mentioned notion is that French is 'transparent' and can even be mapped onto e.g. English. No, it can't, it is limited and the structure of e.g. questions, word placement, peculiar particles and a whole host of peculiar ways of constructing very common phrases and locutions makes it actually quite opaque.
Obviously this is less pronounced if someone is already familiar with another romance language and this is so between all of them, but our OP isn't familiar enough by his own admission, so the learning curve is steeper. I'm not going to say: don't learn French or don't start romance languages with French, because that's up to the person, but it's fair play for me not to say anything that would mislead just in order to motivate.
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby Ug_Caveman » Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:58 pm

If I had to answer this question with my head? I'd do French and Spanish due to them both holding significant international weight.

With my heart? Italian in a heartbeat. I love the music and food and live in an area of the UK with a huge number of Italian families.
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby emk » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:41 pm

Le Baron wrote:This seems off to me and perhaps one of those stereotypes I mentioned. French pronunciation is perhaps the number one complaint with regard to French; even their neighbours the Spanish and Italians complain about it! Practically every other language around it, even if they aren't very orthographic, pronounces most of the letters, and especially endings.

I originally thought that French pronunciation was going to be very difficult. After about a month of 20-minute Assimil lessons, reading French aloud made perfect sense and I never worried about it again. (Well, except for my accent.)

The important thing to understand about French is that:

  • Going from written French to spoken French quickly becomes trivial. The pronunciation rules are more complicated than Italian's, but the rules are almost entirely regular.
  • Going from spoken French to written French can be horrible. In France, they have something like spelling bees, called La Dictée. But instead of spelling words, you write down entire phrases. And even French natives can be stumped by this.
You're right that the difficulty of going from spoken French to written French can pose issues, especially for intermediate listening comprehension. I got over this particular hump by reading and listening to lots of French. In particular, finding written, correctly-spelled colloquial French can be a bit of a challenge at times. Bandes dessinées can provide quite a bit of this colloquial material, if you have a cheap way to access a lot of them.

Most languages have an annoying and tricky bit eventually. But learning how read French aloud (with an accent) is only a problem at the very beginning, if you're using a course like Assimil that combines text and audio.
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:00 pm

emk wrote:You're right that the difficulty of going from spoken French to written French can pose issues, especially for intermediate listening comprehension. I got over this particular hump by reading and listening to lots of French. In particular, finding written, correctly-spelled colloquial French can be a bit of a challenge at times. Bandes dessinées can provide quite a bit of this colloquial material, if you have a cheap way to access a lot of them.

Yes, I agree with this. Mine own trajectory is a hearing first one. I understood before I could ever read anything, which is normal if you hear something as a child. The first things I read in French were comics (mostly those historical ones, but also Iznogoud, Oumpah-pah etc). This pretty much matched the speech I heard except for words I didn't know, though with the shocks of the written form not being as I imagined. As you say, this passes and is part of learning to read.

Also though I'd say there seems to be an equal shock when going from written to spoken. Especially for adult learners learning with straight texts, literature. The cause being you can read all the endings, but you don't hear them. There are also oddities in that you hear the 't' in e.g. 'un but' but not on most words ending with a 't'. It's not just learn one system and then you're good to go. With Spanish that's much more the case.
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Re: Which Romance language should I pick?

Postby tractor » Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:04 pm

Le Baron wrote:This thing about English and its exceptions... They're not 'endless'. In fact the most common ones have been rolled-out so often by now they're getting to be common knowledge. There's really not that many and once you know the word, you know the word and its pronunciation.

They are not endless, but they are many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_orthography
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