Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

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Re: Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

Postby Iversen » Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:17 am

Question: what would our thoughts consist of if we didn't have any language capacity? My answer would be: sensory perceptions manipulated in the mind can qualify (like when I judge whether I can eat one more cookie without getting sick - I don't have to formulate that in words). Perceptions that aren't manipulated in the mind, but nevertheless conscious could exist - I suppose that's what yoga or mindfulness aims at - but just sensing somewhat without getting a conscious about it would not be 'thinking' in my book. And mental processes that never become conscious can't be called thoughts - you have to let them appear in your mind, and then you would be able to play around with them - and that would be 'thinking'. The unmanipulated image can at most be a thought, but doesn't constitute thinking

Until a moment ago I didn't sense the tip of my middle toe on the left foot consciously but now I do - the image of my toe just became conscious because I chose to think about it. And now I can be thinking about it without using words - like Menzel did when he painted his ugly foot (Altes Museum Berlin). He actually didn't need to look at his foot all the time - we can mobilize our sensory areas in the brain to produce virtual impressions, and that definitely qualifies as non-linguistic thinking.

It may be be a bit too philosophical, but human language in some respects resemble the classical senses (hearing, seeing, smelling and feeling): we can pick babble up from our surroundings and then manipulate the impression of it by using the same brain cells that received the message in the first place (plus some actitivity in other parts of the brain). But without either language or mental manipulation of virtual sensory (i.e. with a total blank) there is nothing which I would call a thought.

F5902b04 -Menzel's foot.jpg
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Re: Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

Postby BeaP » Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:33 am

I normally form my thoughts in Hungarian but when it comes to language learning I tend to use English, because I discuss this topic with you, I don't discuss it with anyone in Hungarian. I don't do it on purpose, it just feels natural and rational this way. Also reading your posts and writing here increases my tendency to think in English. In any language I only form those thoughts fully that I might communicate later in some way, it's like a preparation.

So I think it's possible to develop this habit as long as later you'll use the language in speaking or writing. Otherwise, just for the sake of learning, I doubt that a habit like this can be sustained in the long run. For me it seems totally unnatural because I don't react to my surroundings in fully formed, intelligible sentences in my head continuously. Why would I do it in a foreign language with no audience in mind, no prospect of using these thoughts in conversation?

I personally need a situation that at least mimics real communication to think in (or rather to use) Spanish. I read a newspaper article, try to summarise it and then I react to it. On lower levels (like with Italian) I only summarise the texts from my textbook. So I don't really form anything new, just replicate. I always do these aloud, not just in my head.
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Re: Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

Postby leosmith » Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:45 pm

It's pretty popular to say "you must think in your L2" these days. But what does this really mean? Obviously, much (most?) of our thinking is done without language, so it's a somewhat strange demand.

When someone says "you must think in your L2 in order to converse", they probably really mean that you need to turn off the L2 to L1 translation step when you listen, and the L1 to L2 translation step when you speak. Same with the other skills - to get good at them, the translation step should be eliminated. Otherwise, things remain slow and awkward. And this is very trainable.

On the other hand, as another poster mentioned, they might mean talking to themselves, not out loud. It is actually possible to replace some (much?) of the L1 language use going on in your mind with L2. But how much does that really help? I believe it depends mostly on your learning method and what exactly you are trying to accomplish.

Some people like to talk (think?) to themselves, not out loud, to practice conversation, reading or writing. For me, it doesn’t make any sense to do this, and I’ll explain why.

When I want to practice conversation, I converse with someone. I think this is much more effective than talking to myself. But I don’t doubt that it is useful to people who have no interlocuter or are shy/self-conscious/etc.

When I read or write, I pronounce the words out loud. I find this much better for monitoring my pronunciation, amongst other things. But I don’t doubt that talking to oneself, not out loud, is useful to people who are in public and don’t want to feel embarrassed.
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Re: Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:26 pm

leosmith wrote:It's pretty popular to say "you must think in your L2" these days. But what does this really mean? Obviously, much (most?) of our thinking is done without language, so it's a somewhat strange demand.

As someone with an involuntary verbal internal monologue, trust me, it's not at all obvious for some of us. In fact the concept of "mentalese" was extremely counterintuitive for me when I first heard about it, and to some extent it still is, even after having read up on the theory and the research.

Having said that, while I can consciously switch the language of my internal monologue I don't think I've ever done this deliberately in a target language for the purpose of developing a habit (OTOH back when I was studying abroad at one point I made a conscious effort not to think in English, to slow down the deterioration of my spoken Russian). I'm not always aware of what language my internal monologue is in, so when I'm immersed in a language I'm learning and get to a certain level of skill I find myself switching to that language in my thoughts without really meaning to. I remember when I was intensely studying for my final university exam in German I would realize that my thought process had switched to German whenever it would grind to a halt due to lacunae in my vocabulary :lol:
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Re: Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

Postby leosmith » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:01 am

vonPeterhof wrote:As someone with an involuntary verbal internal monologue, trust me, it's not at all obvious for some of us. In fact the concept of "mentalese" was extremely counterintuitive for me when I first heard about it, and to some extent it still is, even after having read up on the theory and the research.
Point taken. Have you tried mindfulness?
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Re: Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:07 pm

Valddu wrote:Has anyone tried to train themselves to think in their target language? Or even think this is something possible or even worth doing?


Short answer here. I'm thinking in English right now, while writing this very post. I'm not translating from my native language (Swedish).

I don't know if it was something I trained myself to do. There's a big possibility that it came after a lot of practice. Some might refer to it as automatization.
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Re: Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

Postby vonPeterhof » Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:58 pm

leosmith wrote:Have you tried mindfulness?

I don't think I have; I sometimes do qigong, but I don't think it's the same thing. But then I don't really see my internal monologue as a problem to be solved, not like it prevents me from sleeping at night most of the time.
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Re: Can you consciously develop the habit of thinking in your target language?

Postby anitarrc » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:26 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
Short answer here. I'm thinking in English right now, while writing this very post. I'm not translating from my native language (Swedish).

I don't know if it was something I trained myself to do. There's a big possibility that it came after a lot of practice. Some might refer to it as automatization.


Same here. I wouldn't know which other language to switch to when writing in the target language.

Only if I don't know the target language well and have to consult Yandex to get my cases right I have to switch to English to write a version of source text which will yield the correct Russian ending :D

When I talk to my son /a friend /a client i switch to that language. When I need to explain a translation problem I have to switch over several times.
One day we had a Quebecois, a Dutch and a US client in the garage, where everybody else speaks only Spanish. I must admit i talked French to the dutch guy at some point.
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