Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

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BeaP
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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby BeaP » Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:26 am

I've done this with Spanish. I agree that it's effective but it's slow. And it's time-consuming, 4-5 hours a day.
My comprehension is totally effortless, I don't get tired at all, it's like watching something in my native language. However, my productive skills are way below my listening level, and I'm very far from a confident speaker. I'd be able to become one in a year or so, but I've lost my motivation when I reached this high level of comprehension.

I think that after a certain point it's useless to argue about the effectiveness of different methods, because people do what they can do: things that fit in their lifestyle and don't require extreme self-discipline or sacrifice. I learned with this method when my kids were small and I couldn't sit at a desk in silence. There was no other choice. Now that my kids are at school, I wouldn't learn a language this way. Also, as I'm getting older, time becomes more and more precious, and I don't want to watch TV for 4 hours, no matter what I could gain from it. I also don't want to reach C2 in the next language in 10-15 years.

If someone hates grammar books, has always hated grammar in school, doesn't know the basic concepts and terminology, that person shouldn't use a grammar book. It doesn't matter how effective it is in other learners' opinion. It would only lead to frustration and irritation. I'd say people should do what is possible for them at the moment, they don't need to convince others or themselves about it. I might be wrong but I often get the impression that a lot of learners (not you, not someone in this thread) want reinforcement: they want to believe in a method, make sure that it's the best one and they defend it in long discussions. The input method stands out as something that people tend to defend vehemently.
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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby philomath » Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:19 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:The basic idea is just to do one simple trick: replace all of your NL entertainment (or nearly all) with TL entertainment -- shows, movies, comics, video games, gaming streams, youtube, books, etc.

I think this would work very well in theory, but it’s difficult to put into practice, for me at least. For one thing, I love to read, and there are a lot more books in English that interest me compared to in my target languages. I also tend to watch TV with my boyfriend, who only speaks English. However, it might be possible to take short breaks from entertainment in English, like for a month at a time. Maybe I should try that. :D
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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby tungemål » Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:03 pm

This thread made me reflect on language learning and effort.

I remember when I learned to read in my native language, it was an effort, but the desire to get through the comic made me forget the "pain".

Learning English has also been an effort, even though I enjoyed it in school. Learning English through media is an effort but "easy" since I (we) use English as a means to something else: understand lyrics of pop songs, watching TV shows, writing posts on a forum etc.

Learning Dutch now is mostly for fun and not something I need. Reading a captivating book can make me forget the effort, but I don't get so much automatic practice as for English. One example:

If I need to read an instruction manual for some gadget, they usually come in many languages, but not always Norwegian. So I could read the instructions in Dutch, or German, but I read it in English since it's the least effort, and the goal is just to understand how to assemble or use this gadget. That gives me more English practice, and it's a "vicious" cycle.
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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby iguanamon » Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:40 pm

I can't live all of my life in languages other than English. I can live some of my life in other languages... and I do, as much as I can or want to do. I live and work in English. My family are all monolingual English-speakers as are most of my friends.

When I am alone, I can do whatever I want. If I want to stay informed on local news, politics and culture- that's in English, where I live. If I want to stay informed in national US news, politics and culture, I have more choice- at least in Spanish. The AP, the NYT both have editions in Spanish... but the best coverage is in English. I can check my local weather in Spanish... but when I need to know in depth about what a hurricane is going to do- the best coverage is in English. The recent passing of Queen Elizabeth II- while there is plenty of coverage in plenty of languages- the best coverage is in English. I can watch baseball games in Spanish, but I can't watch NCAA football or NCAA basketball in anything but English... and I'm just not that into soccer/football (except the World Cup).

My point is that just because you can do something, it doesn't mean that you have to in order to get the job done. You don't have to have all of your entertainment be in TL... and what about people who have more than one language on their plate. So, watch and listen when you can. Read when you can. Try to speak and write when you can. This will work fine when you live outside a TL country.
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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby TopDog_IK » Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:26 am

Yeah definitely an English native learning some new language won't want to give up English language youtube and entertainment entirely. I have to watch about 1 hour a day of English-language stuff on YT just to keep up with my various interests. But for flat-out entertainment and pleasure, like watching anime, TV shows, movies, I try to stick with German as much as I can. I make exceptions to go the cinema maybe twice a month, just for big films, good films.
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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby Sumisu » Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:14 am

This is a constant struggle for me: the balancing act between getting as much input in my TL as possible while also living and breathing my native language in my day-to-day life. I've found that when I try to eliminate English as much as possible, I end up feeling lonely and isolated from my "real" life, which for me consists almost exclusively in interactions with American English speakers. On the other hand, there have been a few times when I've been able to spend several days or weeks where 90% of what I consume is in Japanese, and my Japanese ability definitely improved during those times.

I think this is a great topic. But there's no easy answer to the question. It's going to depend on individual circumstances, which may change over time. I think the important thing is to get as much TL input as you can, while not alienating your native language friends and family.
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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby TopDog_IK » Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:28 am

Sumisu wrote:On the other hand, there have been a few times when I've been able to spend several days or weeks where 90% of what I consume is in Japanese, and my Japanese ability definitely improved during those times.


Yeah those days are key, when you can feel the gains.
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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby Iversen » Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:43 am

Well, entertainment ... I mainly listen to instrumental music (problem solved), and I almost never read literature or watch mainstream films in any language, dead or alive. Which leaves non fictional content which here in Denmark to a large extent is in English. And with a long list of target languages (among which I hardly can count English after so much exposure) I can't just establish an AJATT bubble .. named by a guy who restricted his input to one language, Japanese. The result would in my case look like Michelin man taking a snooze.

There is one problem more: sometimes my TV does send potentially interesting programs with interviews in some other language, but then there is mostly an English or German dubbing voice competing with it, and I can't stand that infamous mixture :evil: :twisted: which only can be targeted to dyslectic monolingual individuals. So in practice I would have serious problems replacing all Danish or English entertainment with some other language - I could do it with German, French, Spanish, Italian, Swedish and Norwegian, but my cable provider closed down my Slavic channels just when I was able to understand at least some of the content. :?

As for the problem with multitasking or having greasy fingers which prevent you from looking things up: after the loss of my incomprehensible channels I can understand the main language of all the channels on my TV without using a dictionary, and my worst problem now is the nasty overlaid dubbing I mentioned above and the mostly utterly rotten disgusting background music. So when I watch TV I mostly just switch on the Text TV subtitles and listen to music from my computer at the same time ... or watch documentaries and quizzes in funny languages from Youtube.

I'm however pondering one change that indirectly might support the NL > TL effort: a large proportion of my Danish written input consists in my daily newspaper. I'm seriously considering a permanent delivery change to my mother's place for it, and then I will have more time for other languages when I'm at home (PS the newspaper on the painting below is not the one I have subscribed to - it's the one in the small window inside the painting).

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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby verdastelo » Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:42 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:I'm wondering if any one else has tried this, or has thoughts on using this approach to acquire a second language?


That's how a large number of Indians have acquired Hindi. Many speak and understand the language extremely well but are at a loss when it comes to reading and writing. One of such persons is a friend from the state of Manipur. He lived for 10 years in Punjab. No one learned his mother tongue, Meitei, and he didn't bother about Punjabi. Hindi was his sole connection to the outside world and Bollywood, he acknowledges, played a major role in helping him learn it. I don't think he has read a single book in Hindi after completing school. Yet, he is fluent. He now complains that because of the lockdown in 2020, his 5- or 6-year-old nephew watched so much YouTube that he now feels more at home in Hindi than his native Meitei. His family is worried.

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Re: Immersion: Replacing all NL entertainment with TL?

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:48 pm

Iversen wrote:There is one problem more: sometimes my TV does send potentially interesting programs with interviews in some other language, but then there is mostly an English or German dubbing voice competing with it, and I can't stand that infamous mixture :evil: :twisted: which only can be targeted to dyslectic monolingual individuals.
I am glad to learn someone else resents this maddening practice! I once tried to tolerate the two voices at one time, but now I just turn off the video.
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