How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

General discussion about learning languages

How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Useful.
1
8%
Not Useful.
8
67%
Other.
3
25%
 
Total votes: 12

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leosmith
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How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby leosmith » Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:04 am

I don't know about y'all, but I am somewhat annoyed by all the "Don't say no!" posts and videos that have been floating around for years, regarding many (every?) languages. I just don't find them useful, and the shear number of upvotes and fawning over the genius of the posters just urges them on. They seem to be on the rise, so it may be time to start a "Don't say 'don't say no'!" campaign. Thoughts?

(edit: I regret not including the "Don't say yes!" posts/videos)
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby Sae » Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:03 am

It's not something I've come across before in videos/posts.

Is it just the idea of encouraging people to give fuller answers than just yes/no? Because that's the only concept I'm familiar with.

If that, then I guess in a language learning environment it can help, but in a practical one maybe not depending on the conversation I guess. I know my Vietnamese tutor encourages me to not answer him with just yes/no for most questions (he'll let me for some) but he makes clear he does it because he wants me to practice what I've learned & challenge myself but in a real situation then chances are, I'd use "yes" or "no". And I find that useful in 1) showing I've comprehended the question I've been asked and 2) I get to practice more sentences/words, which helps my progression.
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby leosmith » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:55 pm

Sae wrote:Is it just the idea of encouraging people to give fuller answers than just yes/no?

Sometimes. And I understand your point - they always wanted us to answer with complete sentences in my high school Spanish class, for example. But that is a bit unnatural in colloquial conversation. I always try to do what the natives do.

But more often than not, these posts/videos are encouraging people to give alternate negative/positive responses. Some will even claim that natives don't often use no/yes, which I believe is false in most languages. If you want to see examples of this, you can put "don't say no(yes) in (language)" in YouTube search.
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby Sae » Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pm

leosmith wrote:
Sae wrote:Is it just the idea of encouraging people to give fuller answers than just yes/no?

Sometimes. And I understand your point - they always wanted us to answer with complete sentences in my high school Spanish class, for example. But that is a bit unnatural in colloquial conversation. I always try to do what the natives do.

But more often than not, these posts/videos are encouraging people to give alternate negative/positive responses. Some will even claim that natives don't often use no/yes, which I believe is false in most languages. If you want to see examples of this, you can put "don't say no(yes) in (language)" in YouTube search.



Fair. I think there needs to be a good balance, because I think your expectations of how a real conversation will go will help you speak more naturally. It's why I ended up learning with a native speaker, because the goal is exactly that, for us to have natural conversations like people have. We're not at that stage yet, so fuller answers help him know I understood him and helps me with practice, but then he's made clear himself that it's not normal and that normally yes/no is fine.

But if they claim natives don't often use "no/yes", I find it hard to believe too, because I think in casual conversation people put as little effort in as they can to communicate ideas and many questions can be answered "yes/no" without the need for elaboration. But of course I am limited by the languages I have tried to learn.

I guess I'd understand if:
- It's only for learning purposes before you hit a certain level of conversational skills in that language.
- They're teaching you how to use alternatives ways you can answer. EG: all the different ways you can tell somebody 'no'.
- They make clear how things are used in actual conversation.

Else I think yeah, somebody would get the wrong idea and they'd sound less natural in conversation.
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:03 pm

I actually dislike those videos. I don't want to be told some list of what 'not' to say all the time. I'd rather they told me what I could say instead. Some of the videos are useful when they point out common errors, but many are just an opinion telling you not to say certain things and turn out to be just not true on many counts. also just an excuse to make 'content' and keep a channel alive.
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:14 am

leosmith wrote:Some will even claim that natives don't often use no/yes, which I believe is false in most languages.

Might just be me and my YouTube algorithm, but I don't think I've ever heard this said about any language other than Japanese, where it's pretty much demonstrably true, at least in relation to the default word most commonly taught to beginners as the translation of "no".
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:00 am

I clearly misunderstood the topic.
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby Cainntear » Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:38 am

Le Baron wrote:just an excuse to make 'content' and keep a channel alive.

One of the problems with YouTube for educational content is the algorithm's love of recency and of active channels.

You could write the perfect 24-hour introductory course in Swahili, web development, macramé or anything you care to name, but if you stop uploading videos when you've finished it, it'll quickly slip down the rankings into oblivion and be forgotten about.

There was a trend a few years back for channels with names like "real German" to go out and do vox-pop videos where people asked natives rather basic questions as listening practice for beginners. It takes more time than some people would think because you end up having to work through lots of recordings and find the bits that work, throw away the bits where traffic sounds got in the way etc.

They were pretty good resources and got a bit of attention at the time, but all of the channels doing it slowly introduced more and more quick presenter-to-camera videos, because they were quicker to make and meant the algorithm saw them as a living, active channel.

These "Don't ..." videos are just what the algorithm pushes people towards. They're quick and easy to make and they get a lot of clicks.
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby leosmith » Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:56 pm

vonPeterhof wrote:I don't think I've ever heard this said about any language other than Japanese, where it's pretty much demonstrably true
You mean いいえ? It's pretty common, for example, as a response to ありがとう and before 結構. If you want to see it for another language, you can put "don't say no(yes) in (language)" in YouTube search.
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Re: How useful are "Don't say no!" posts and videos?

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:49 pm

leosmith wrote:
vonPeterhof wrote:I don't think I've ever heard this said about any language other than Japanese, where it's pretty much demonstrably true
You mean いいえ? It's pretty common, for example, as a response to ありがとう and before 結構.

Sure is, but showing modesty is pretty much the only context where it's commonly used. It's a lot less common to use it to negate factual statements or decline requests, even when doing so quite firmly.
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