definition of fluent

[miles]

Hi,
I am new here. I looked around the forum for previous posts on this subject but wasn’t able to search efficiently.

I am currently studying spanish on my own with pimsleur/ MT / and FSI.
My wife is first language spanish and second language english and our baby is 10 month and we are approaching a bilingual philosophy.

I would like to be fluent in spanish. But what is fluency? I would like to set better more defined goal posts by creating a definition of fluency for myself to work towards.

[Cenwalh]

But what is fluency? I would like to set better more defined goal posts by creating a definition of fluency for myself to work towards.

Hi miles, welcome to the forum.

There is no set definition of fluency, and as you approach it, you'll realise that it is an ever moving goal post. You feel like you're close forever, and then once you sort of get there, you still don't actually feel it.

I would suggest you look into CEFR levels which are how we in Europe (and all over the Internet) define language abilities as a better type of goal, but if you want a really good goal, then you could look into SMART goals. What SMART stands for varies depending on who you ask, but basically it's about what you put in over a given time rather than what you get out.

An example might be that you're going to do something in Spanish for 4 hours every week for the next six months. You might be aiming for A1 or even A2 in this time (see CEFR levels from earlier), but if you don't reach them, then you've still met your goal.

Best of luck.

Edit: also I'd suggest a one language one parent strategy for the kid if you're aiming for it to be bilingual

[Kraut]

Hi,
I am new here. I looked around the forum for previous posts on this subject but wasn’t able to search efficiently.

I am currently studying spanish on my own with pimsleur/ MT / and FSI.
My wife is first language spanish and second language english and our baby is 10 month and we are approaching a bilingual philosophy.

I would like to be fluent in spanish. But what is fluency? I would like to set better more defined goal posts by creating a definition of fluency for myself to work towards.

The fluency you need is not the fluency of a hobby learner of languages: you will be raising a bilingual child. With courses you will never be as fluent as a native when interacting with it in the situations that may come up.
There is a concept that I find more useful in such a situation: theme-related fluency for which you can prepare yourself: "Spanish for talking to babies", "Spanish round the house" (I'm just watching the Property Brothers with Spanish subs and audio) "Spanish for playing in the garden", "Playing games" (https://www.spanishplayground.net/spanish-games-kids/) etc .....

[Cenwalh]

What is the definition of bilingual?

A person who has two tongues?

[luke]

What is the definition of bilingual?

A person who has two tongues?

1:07

[iguanamon]

Fluency is such a loaded word. Member s_allard suggested on the old forum that we use the term- "proficiency" instead. The CEFR levels and their descriptions of what skills are expected at each level are helpful in having something to aim for and reach.

As someone who has learned some languages to a high level, I can tell you that you don't need vocabulary until... you need it. I learned the word for "shoestrings" in Portuguese (cardaços) when I was buying a pair of shoes in Brazil and didn't want neon yellow ones. I never had a need for the word before. I learned more everyday Portuguese when I lived with a Brazilian woman and needed the vocabulary.

Also, it's possible to have a great command of "home" language but not be able to read poetry or understand a university lecture... and vice-versa. So, that's why "fluent"is a loaded word. It's implication is that a learner can do everything in a language like a native can do. In practice, a C2 proficient second-language learner may not be able to do the simplest things in everyday situations- like "get the car repaired" in the language or describe how they want their hair cut in the language. That's just one of the many reasons we don't use the word- "fluent" here.

[Le Baron]

Hi,I would like to be fluent in spanish. But what is fluency? I would like to set better more defined goal posts by creating a definition of fluency for myself to work towards.

Fluency as a word has a definition: smooth, easy, perhaps 'effortless'. Unfortunately in something like real-world languages the application of it is not fixed. After all if one speaks and searches for a few words or hesitates in an explanation, has fluency collapsed? So that we're only fluent when we're being fluent? This is the sort of gibberish it collapses into.

So for yourself 'fluency' will not mean being able to speak like your wife. You have a great advantage in having someone there with whom you can speak real-life Spanish, but her fluency and your fluency will be different. She understands everything, you won't. She can say pretty much anything in lots of ways, you won't be able to. Not for some time. So 'fluency' will change over time.

It's easier to say what fluency isn't. It isn't when someone speaks to you and you can hardly understand or respond. When you have barely any vocabulary. When you make huge numbers of mistakes (though some people can waffle at length making mistakes, are they fluent? Maybe). If you can use the language to meet your goals and desire to express yourself, and other people understand you without much trouble, there's some fluency, but at that point who cares what it's called.

[jimmy]

What is the definition of bilingual?

A person who has two tongues?

YES, or more properly someone just like me!
note please By the definition of bilingual,I understand mother tongue.

[miles]

Thank you for all your responses. Very helpful.

le baron - I think the idea you suggest of rather thinking of what fluency isn’t is helpful for me.

iguanamon and s_allard - the idea of replacing fluency with proficiency makes sense and works well with Kraut’s idea of being proficienct for different situations.

Cenwhall - this relationship with language learning of putting time in and what one gets out of it is suprising and so discouraging at times. The idea of simply marking progress by time commitment through this SMART rubric is helpful.

[Le Baron]

1:07

The top comment on YT said: 'To be honest, this is probably what every interviewer sounds like to Noam Chomsky.'