definition of fluent

General discussion about learning languages
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rdearman
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Re: definition of fluent

Postby rdearman » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:31 pm

I think you are confusing Native level language and C2 because native-like mastery is an insanely high standard. The C2 standard is:

  • Can understand with ease virtually everything heard or read.
  • Can summarise information from different spoken and written sources, reconstructing arguments and accounts in a coherent presentation.
  • Can express themselves spontaneously, very fluently and precisely, differentiating finer shades of meaning even in the most complex situations.

That is the definition of C2 and my nieghbour can do this, she is nine years old. The expectation for her in school at her age is:

  • Uses language effectively for a variety of purposes/situations
  • Participates in group discussions
  • Gives accurate directions to others
  • Summarizes and restates ideas
  • Organizes information for clarity
  • Uses subject area information and vocabulary for learning
  • Give effective oral presentations
  • Can explain relationships between meanings of multiple-meaning words (analogies)
  • Uses more abstract and specific vocabulary and grammar, complex sentences in writing than in conversation
  • Uses a variety of words, not just the same ones over and over
  • Gives synonyms and categories in word definitions
  • 4 out of 5 words have a prefix or suffix
  • Uses more figurative language in conversation
  • Listens to and understands information presented by peers
  • Form opinions based on evidence
  • Listens for specific purposes
  • Demonstrates understanding of grade level content material
  • Understands jokes and riddles based on sound similarities – Examples: “What kind of shows to cows like to watch?” “Moo-sicals”
  • Understands jokes and riddles based on word ambiguity – Examples: “Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I’ll never know.” – Groucho Marx
  • Understands most common idioms
  • Reads for specific purposes
  • Reads grade level books fluently
  • Use previously learned information to understand new information
  • Follow written directions
  • Take brief notes
  • Link information learned to different subjects
  • Learn meanings of new words through knowledge of word origins, synonyms, and multiple meanings
  • Use reference materials
  • Explain the author’s purpose and style
  • Read and understand a variety of literature
  • Compare and contrast in content areas
  • Make inferences from texts
  • Paraphrase content, include main idea and details
  • Read 120-150 words per minute
  • Write effective narratives and explanations, and several paragraphs on the same topic
  • Develop a plan for writing, beginning, middle, end
  • Organize writing to convey a central idea
  • Edit final copies for grammar, punctuation, spelling
  • Write effective narratives and explanations, and several paragraphs on the same topic
  • Develop a plan for writing, beginning, middle, end
  • Organize writing to convey a central idea
  • Edit final copies for grammar, punctuation, spelling

So you can see that a nine-year-old child is expected to have a GREATER linguistic ability in their native language than a C2 foreigner.
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Re: definition of fluent

Postby s_allard » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:33 pm

parasitius wrote:
iguanamon wrote:In practice, a C2 proficient second-language learner may not be able to do the simplest things in everyday situations- like "get the car repaired" in the language


This is a particular argument form I see all over the internet, but I've never questioned it directly before. How does this make any sense?

Yeah man but WHAT IF [Some one who is a C2 level speaker] = [scenario which mostly proves this person is absolutely not C2 nor even close]?

Well the simple answer is THEY'RE NOT C2 and they're not close to C2!!


I feel I have to come to the defense of my buddy iguanamon here. As someone who passed the Spanish C2 exam at first go, I know exactly what ihe s saying about not being able to do some simple things in the target language

Very simply put, the C2 certification is definitely skewed towards proficiency in the formal language as can easily be seen in the descriptors of the various levels. What it is certainly not is an indication of the ability to interact spontaneously with native speakers in informal situations.

All this was abundantly made clear to me when I visited Mexico shortly after passing my C2 exam. I was suddenly confronted with a whole world of everyday Mexican informal urban Spanish in which I initially felt helpless. For example, just getting food to eat required learning a whole vocabulary and phraseology that I had never been exposed to.

I loved it. I felt like a pig in mud. I absorbed the language like a sponge. With the help of a Mexican friend and guide, I was able to use my C2 resources to quickly learn what I needed. By closely observing what Mexicans said in given situations, reading every sign or poster I saw and asking lots of questions I was quickly up and running.

Here I have to say that the presence of a Mexican buddy and cultural guide was invaluable. I remember particularly one instance where he explained to the clerk at the front desk of my hotel that the internet in my room was too slow and that I needed a faster connection for my work. After some discussion the attendant promptly gave me access to another network in the lobby of the hotel.

I was in awe of how deftly my buddy handled the whole thing. And obviously I carefully observed how the language was used by both parties in the interaction. It was simple Spanish, nothing like the complex sentences full of imperfect subjunctives that I was used to reading or hearing on Youtube, but I had never had to deal with this kind of situation.

And that’s the whole point that iguanamon was making : you don’t learn something until you are exposed to it.
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s_allard
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Re: definition of fluent

Postby s_allard » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:08 pm

I think there is a misunderstanding here as to what the C2 level means. Since I seem to be one of the very few people here who actually passed a C2 exam, I think I know a thing or two about how it works.

While it is the highest level of certification of non-native language proficiency in the CEFR, it does not equate to native proficiency. Far from it. These are two separate concepts.

As I stated in my previous post, the C2 certification, and I would add the whole CEFR system, is really oriented towards the formal and somewhat academic language deemed necessary for the harmonious workings of the European Union. It is not a system for evaluating native language skills.

Obviously, a native speaker, depending particularly on level of education, possesses not only a (wide) range of language ability but also an enormous cultural knowledge set that the non-native does not have. This allows a native speaker to engage in conversations on all kinds of subjects in a heuristic manner, meaning you learn as you do along.

So the idea is not that the C2 certified speaker cannot get their car repaired. It’s that unlike the native speaker who can easily talk around the problem and come to a resolution with the mechanic, our C2 non-native will be very clumsy in the beginning because of the lack of vocabulary and discursive skills. But ultimately the car will be repaired

For example, I have no clue how the game of cricket works. I have never played it, I have never seen a game. I’ve only seen pictures and read references to it in the works of P.G. Wodehouse. I have no knowledge of cricket terminology and slang. Can I have an interesting conversation with a rabid Australian cricket fan ? Well, it’s going to be difficult in the beginning, but with my knowledge of baseball and a few questions, I should be able to figure out how cricket works.

We then should be able to talk a bit about the game. On the other hand, when two Australian cricket aficionados start talking about the game, I am quickly lost because I just don’t have the knowledge and the vocabulary to follow the conversation.
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Re: definition of fluent

Postby parasitius » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:21 am

Thanks for all the brilliant comments adding nuance to this discussion.

I feel like references to ''C2' certification' really turn my argument on its head. The CEFR gives a very abstract definition of C2 that to me would all be things a very near native would be able to do. When you mention a certification, you're basically pulling in the shortcomings of a test. It's not a surprise that a test has flaws. The best designed test in the world can only eliminate as many non-C2s as possible by failing them, but not exclusively *include* C2s by passing them.

So to me, someone who passes a test that calls itself a C2 test isn't at all guaranteed to be a C2. It is just like with the Japanese JLPT exams most people have known since forever that Chinese students with no functional capability in the language regularly pass the highest level. Meanwhile, a Westerner who passes it is statistically a lot more likely to have the real world proficiency associated just because they don't get the benefits of "knowing the Kanji" etc. and were forced to learn systematically/holistically.

Test flaw != C2 definition flaw. I would still not want to call anyone C2 if they can't handle everything as well as something like an average 10 year old immigrant to America who is now 18 and has been immerse in local schools the whole period. Maybe I'm missing something but that's about what a C2 describes to me when I read it. I've met such people so I have a good handle on the tiny problems they have here and there but generally the vocabulary is impossible to catch up on because 30,000 words takes more time no matter what
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Re: definition of fluent

Postby anitarrc » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:12 am

miles wrote:Thank you for all your responses. Very helpful.

le baron - I think the idea you suggest of rather thinking of what fluency isn’t is helpful for me.

iguanamon and s_allard - the idea of replacing fluency with proficiency makes sense and works well with Kraut’s idea of being proficienct for different situations.

Cenwhall - this relationship with language learning of putting time in and what one gets out of it is suprising and so discouraging at times. The idea of simply marking progress by time commitment through this SMART rubric is helpful.


I won't come up with another definition of fluency, everybody else tried it. In my case, I can discuss and follow just about every subject in spanish, except those I don't understand to begin with. (good example here in the forum : AMA slogging). Or the finer points of roof construction. etc. I am not saying that I always get the subjuntivo right.
To your case
There is a couple I know with 3 kids, she is from California or florida, he is Dutch and they live in Costa Rica since 2005 at least.

While their kids are very young, dad talks Dutch, mum talks American English. They will introduce Spanish as needed, at the baker etc. Once they enter preschool, they learn Spanish. The parents help as needed.

Later they learn their parents operating mode.. Dutch to each other (mostly) Spanish for most others and English for gringo clients.
The oldest daughter is 15 now, speaks Spanish best, corrects her parents and loves Dutch, too. Nº2 is a 10 yo male and WON'T speak Dutch.

The youngest one was about to enter preschool when I visited last winter. So far, he prefers Dutch.

I guess for you it will be a bit less complicated. Do you live in an English speaking or Spanish speaking country? Visit the other parent's home on holiday.
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