About accents

General discussion about learning languages
s_allard
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Re: About accents

Postby s_allard » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:55 pm

I personally think that this whole accent debate is way overblown because, truth be told, accent or rather phonetic proficiency is in reality the result of interactive exposure to native material and speakers.

So, taking into account the age issue I alluded to in my earlier post, to acquire good speaking proficiency in general you have to combine some sort of deliberate study with as much exposure to appropriate native speakers as possible. I use the word appropriate to mean those people you want to emulate.

For example, let’s say, heavens forbid, you spend the next ten years in a Mexican jail and you decide to take advantage of your time to at least learn some Spanish. What will your Spanish sound like when you come out? It will certainly be very fluent with probably very good pronunciation. But, you must keep in mind that you will probably be speaking Mexican underworld slang. Educated Mexicans will certainly find it amusing that a non-Mexican-looking person sounds like a local hoodlum with a strange accent.

There is so much to learn in a new language that the question becomes where to put one’s priorities. Since I think pronunciation tends to develop naturally, I emphasize grammar and vocabulary and the help of a good tutor. Such a tutor should make sure that you are at least understandable, and that usually means some pronunciation work.

On the other hand, language tutors are usually not voice coaches and are not trained to do detailed work on your speaking. For this there are people who specialize in dialects or in accent correction. Obviously they charge a pretty penny. If you have a real need for impeccable pronunciation and a budget, you can likely find professional help.
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Re: About accents

Postby leosmith » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:47 am

Le Baron wrote:I'm doubtful.
It may not be the majority, but many videos on Youtube and posts in other forums say we shouldn't be too concerned about accent; this is very common "advice". They may add a qualifier like "as long as you are understood, it's good enough", or they may not. I'm not sure I've ever read/heard clear rules of thumb regarding how much time/effort we should spend on developing it, how to tell if it's good enough, etc. It's pretty vague advice. So it's not too surprising that when I check out reddit topics or youtube comments for videos regarding accent/pronunciation, I read lots of posts playing down the importance of pronunciation. My favorite are tonal language learners that say it's ok to ignore tones, or to just "learn them later".

Here is Steve Kaufmann arguing that it's not important to learn pitch accent in Japanese.
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Re: About accents

Postby tractor » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:29 am

Is people not speaking because they worry too much about their accent a more common problem than people not speaking because they worry too much about using the wrong word or bad grammar?
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Re: About accents

Postby spoon » Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:12 pm

s_allard wrote:I’m surprised that no mention has been made about the theory or idea of a critical period or age for acquiring something approximating native phonetics in a foreign language. One can quibble about the exact age from which achieving native-like is unlikely but it’s around 16-18 years. The key is to start early, the earlier the better.

I wonder what the argumentation for this critical period theory actually is - as it takes quite a leap to arrive from a general observation "Most adult L2 learners never acquire native-sounding accents" to the wide-reaching conclusion about how adult human brain operates with regard to language acquisition.

Because, well, my general observation is that most adult L2 learners are never taught any accent at all. Usually, by the time their L2 becomes conversational they will have learned some basic phonetic information - that is, which sound corresponds to which combination of letters, some sounds of course ending up rough approximations or outright L1 transfers. More advanced stuff like intonation patterns never bears mention in an average language textbook and is reserved for niche professional education or classes with a voice coach, another niche activity. The deal for anyone else is to play it by ear while (ideally) listening a lot. One is supposed to eventually get there. Well, at least somewhere.

Let's linger on that music metaphor a bit. I would say "playing by ear" is not quite exact. Instead, imagine you have a piano piece to perform. With a caveat: the piano is somewhat out of tune, and the music score you were given has note pitches only; no duration, time signature, tempo or dynamic markers are provided. You know however how the piece sounds when others perform it - the goal is to figure it out from what little you have. How many people will successfully perform, even to a lenient standard of "close enough"? Not that many, I would imagine.

That, to me, is what happens to language learners.
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Le Baron
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Re: About accents

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:25 pm

spoon wrote:Because, well, my general observation is that most adult L2 learners are never taught any accent at all. Usually, by the time their L2 becomes conversational they will have learned some basic phonetic information - that is, which sound corresponds to which combination of letters, some sounds of course ending up rough approximations or outright L1 transfers.

Clearly because, as you said further, it is reserved for usually expensive voice coaching. The reason being it is quite intensive. And still it remains that you need to have some sort of ear. There are plenty of actors who receive expensive voice coaching over months and turn in an awful accent performance and some who turn in an excellent one.

So I don't really buy the 'if only adults were trained' and 'if only they were trained earlier' that this would eliminate the issue or reveal some latent magic where adults learn near-perfect accents. Good ones more likely, if you have the time and money and a thirst for work and a good ear.
The very point of naturalistic sound system acquisition, that of a native language, is that it isn't something consciously acquired - and also it's most commonly acquired over time. So-called 'true bilinguals' are really only the people who ever have this and even that varies. I think of someone I met here whose father is from Yorkshire and I recognised the accent immediately. Astonishing for someone who has never even been there for more than a brief visit. Yet over time and with listening I realised that the accent wasn't pure, but was a beguiling composite with some Dutch sounds that were less visible, due to them also being quite flat. So even there the reliance on approximations.

This is also seen to a lesser extent when someone lives in an L2 situation for a long time and ends up having their sound system distorted. Often to the point of adopting a hybrid set of sounds. This happened to my mother. Also an Italian woman I knew who had lived in Manchester from the 50s. She had an Italian accent, but also very prominent Mancunian intonation on many words. Likely vocabulary and phrases learned after immigration.

The point isn't that people can't find ways to develop good accents as adults, but that it isn't foolproof and these so-called methods where people imagine they internalise sound systems as adults through listening, are simply unproven. So there are people thinking if they don't sound 'right' yet it's not time to start using the language.
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Re: About accents

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:26 pm

tractor wrote:Is people not speaking because they worry too much about their accent a more common problem than people not speaking because they worry too much about using the wrong word or bad grammar?

Perhaps both?, but the question is good.There's definitely a stage where the latter fear stops people talking.
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s_allard
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Re: About accents

Postby s_allard » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:51 pm

I won’t get into the critical age idea because I don’t want to hijack the thread. My own take on the idea is very simple. I skip all the cognitive and neuroscience stuff and focus on two things.

First of all, we start spontaneously acquiring the phonology and the rest of our native language from Day 1, and things are basically set by the age of around 15. Higher education will have an enormous impact of course on grammar, vocabulary and writing skills. In a situation of upward social mobility there will be pressure to adopt a more prestigious form of speaking. And certain professions such as acting, law, politics, radio and television work, etc. may require a change of accent.

Secondly, when one starts learning a foreign language at an adult age, there is already in the brain a native language that hitherto had a cognitive-linguistic monopoly. All the existing acquired knowledge, reflexes and fine motor skills are going to interfere with the acquisition of all the new knowledge, reflexes and fine motor skills necessary for the new language. How to keep things separate will be a major challenge.

The critical age theory basically says that other languages are best learned at an early age because the (young) learner is still in language acquisition mode and will acquire notably the fine motor skills for good pronunciation. Once that critical age has passed, things become much more difficult.

Again I would emphasize that the adult learner should not get hung up on trying to sound native. It’s not going to happen. That said, one can and should strive to be clearly understood in the target language. And there is a lot one can do to attenuate a foreign accent if you think it is a handicap
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Re: About accents

Postby german2k01 » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:13 pm

One thing I can say with 100% surety, opting for a formal language course is not the right way to attenuate your foreign accent. The way course work is designed students are forced to speak and answer teachers' questions in their broken German/target language. I am attending such a course for experience's sake. They think they are speaking German but they are simply butchering the language.

There is no feedback regarding their pronunciation. Teachers are just interested in teaching grammar rules and going through a course book; performing artificial role plays hoping that learned rules can be acquired effortlessly.

Students are happy. Teachers are happy. In my humble opinion, it is hard to convince everyone as they think their way is the right way. For me, God exists and has shown me enough paranormal clues about his existence. However, I can not convince everyone about his existence.

For me, Dr.Brown's research is a legitimate one. However, I can not convince everyone to shut their mouth for 30 months and just listen to the language for 6 hours every day to attenuate their foreign accent naturally and effortlessly.

I listen to my German native teacher in the class. When she speaks, input-->processing-->output (comprehensible meaning). My subconscious mind notices nothing. The whole process is seamless. When other students speak, it notices/detects a lot of things. A Turkish student is speaking with an S sound instead of a T sound in the German word "Vorteile". An Indian student is pronouncing words with a strong accent.

Why is it happening, in my humble opinion, it is due to a lack of intensive listening. They are trying to speak based on the learned pronunciation rules they studied at the A1 level instead of letting the listening/language activity itself wash over their head and let subconscious mind notices the correct pronunciation automatically.

I can not convince anyone that is my observation and my opinion. Therefore, take it with a pinch of salt. :)
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Re: About accents

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:31 pm

To attenuate their accent by merely listening?
german2k01 wrote:For me, God exists and has shown me enough paranormal clues about his existence.

I now understand where you are coming from.

A Persian friend of mine who left aged 16/17 after the revolution, and who actually spent most of his years in the U.S. also speaks Dutch with what you would characterise as fatal errors. Some of the pronunciations sound German. He was also in Sweden after Iran and this perhaps has some effect. However he's been running a renovation business here for 12 years and uses the language daily. Was using it after 12 months at the govt course he attended. No-one ever says 'what?' Or misunderstands.

What's the problem? Are you planning a career in voice acting?
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Re: About accents

Postby badger » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:41 pm

german2k01 wrote:However, I can not convince everyone to shut their mouth for 30 months and just listen to the language for 6 hours every day to attenuate their foreign accent naturally and effortlessly.

in what way is 6hr/day for ~900 days "effortless" ? & that's putting aside the opportunity cost.
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