How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

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Lawyer&Mom
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:18 pm

Le Baron wrote:
I only relate this because people in the US and UK often tend to lay into their own systems and think that elsewhere (usually western Europe) the official language degrees are somehow much more advanced for some reason.


Yes and no. I was a German major in the United States, I started my degree with no prior German experience, and none was required. My program aimed to get its students to an mid-intermediate level, around B1/B2, by the end of the degree. Here is a totally normal German degree in France:
https://export-rof-api.unistra.fr/expor ... E87/PR533/

You need a documented B2 to *start* the first year of the degree, and they expect a C1 by year 2! Obviously their kids are going to finish their degree much higher than their American counterparts! But German is commonly taught as a French Baccalauréat subject, and only kids who studied German in school are likely to do the university degree.

However there are language degrees in France that don’t require prior language skills, particularly for languages not taught at French schools, and these programs probably have outcomes similar to American language degrees.
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:08 pm

Lawyer&Mom wrote:You need a documented B2 to *start* the first year of the degree, and they expect a C1 by year 2! Obviously their kids are going to finish their degree much higher than their American counterparts! But German is commonly taught as a French Baccalauréat subject, and only kids who studied German in school are likely to do the university degree.

The starting point on this for me would be to state that in general German is next to nothing in France and plummeting fast. Same here where German was a popular subject at one time. Completely displaced by English. Many fewer learn it. It's not even popular now in areas like Alsace, which is why the government is advertising for German teachers from outside. Even the French in Switzerland are allergic to German and it's the majority language.

But I take your point completely - that the entry requirement is likely higher - and what I wrote above is in favour of your argument since it would indicate that there are possibly also fewer chances for usage now apart from Erasmus and exchange semesters.

The entry requirement you stated for the US degree baffles me though. Prior knowledge is bog standard for a university course. You also can't just turn up in the UK to language degree courses with no prior knowledge. Every entrant has done A levels or equivalent in the languages they pursue. So I'm dumbfounded as to how they could accept undergraduates in the U.S. with no prior knowledge. It strikes me as bizarre. Like accepting a student on an economics degree with no mathematics foundation or any economics. How could they even function?

I just looked at the PDF, it's pretty heavy on written material, though it states clearly they aim for oral competence. I know it states B2 German as a requirement (and only B2 French??), though this might not tally with the actual ability of the entrant. Yet since French entry requirements are notoriously strict and quite high it's not unusual. Right now there's an issue with lots of French people applying for university in Belgium because the entry system is much less rigid. Though the system is still good.

Like I said though, I take your point. The language courses in Europe promote heavy usage and interaction and this makes a difference. The government programmes take people who are even functionally illiterate and turn out speakers who can write within a maximum of two years.
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:34 pm

Le Baron wrote:The entry requirement you stated for the US degree baffles me though. Prior knowledge is bog standard for a university course.


Not in the United States! We don’t specialize in high school. Everyone going to university takes more or less the same classes. (Four years English, four years math, three years science, two years foreign language etc.) Admissions to a specific degree program can be competitive, but a specific degree doesn’t require special course work before hand, other than the general requirements to be admitted into the university. (So if a University happens to require four years of science, not three, this is for *all* their students, English majors and Chemistry majors alike.) So taking extra science classes or higher level science classes in high school may make you more competitive for that engineering degree at MIT, but extra classes, beyond what all MIT students are required to take, is not a prerequisite.

All students at a University have some general education requirements. So all students, regardless of major need to take an English class, a hard science class, a social science class, a math class etc. etc.

Our degree programs are four years instead of three in to account for the general education requirements. But even with the extra time we don’t advance quite as far in our areas of focus. But our engineers have taken a college level humanities class, and our English majors took a college level science class, which is a good thing! It’s just a different system with different goals.
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby gsbod » Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:46 pm

Le Baron wrote:The entry requirement you stated for the US degree baffles me though. Prior knowledge is bog standard for a university course. You also can't just turn up in the UK to language degree courses with no prior knowledge. Every entrant has done A levels or equivalent in the languages they pursue.


It was always the case that languages that are generally not taught in schools would be taught from scratch on degree courses. But these days that applies even to languages like German, where many universities will offer two entry pathways according to whether you have reached A level standard or not. You'll still need good A levels in other subjects.

The only exception is French, which is still the most common language taught at A level, so there are enough potential students with the A level for universities to recruit from while being stricter on the entry requirements.

The main thing is the level you are expected to reach after 4 years of study, which is the same regardless of your starting qualifications.
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:17 pm

I think I know perhaps why people pursue language degrees - a degree in a subject you enjoy and seek to pursue professionally - and that it's separate from just 'language learning'. I don't think I would ever pursue a language degree course, but this is because I wouldn't care for the strict organisation and set texts and all that. Not now.

So I wouldn't put these into the category of 'classes' for my purposes. They're more about an attempt at educational and career investments. Most of all I don't think they are an argument against (or maybe even 'for) organised classes for learning and as a tool. A degree is a different sort of thing.

In the spirit of the original thread title I'm all in favour of self-directed learning, but I want to be realistic about its pitfalls as well as its benefits. Which is why I favour self-learning supplemented by short, but intense classes if and when required. To acknowledge that self-directed learning isn't always efficient and that is often because people lack access to things that help them avoid reinventing the wheel, due to their work or geographical location or money or time or whatever.

People such as those on this site have the benefit of having been through the mill a few times. So you learn from mistakes, and yet still makes new ones with new languages where the learned rules don't apply. So I favour consulting a professional at least for some of the time just to get some expert guidance even if for a little of the way. Just like I would consult a professional for other things. I am not a professional language expert. Just a well-travelled amateur. I like self-directed learning and you can get far with it a lot of the time if you're dedicated and can make good decisions...famous last words.
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby german2k01 » Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:24 pm

That is the only way to make the fastest progress. The whole German grammar you can study in 7 days it should not take 6 months as is the case in intensive german classes from A2 to B2. They teach you grammar in small increments with a 30-minute break and the teacher is having a big lunch :D in front of her students. Language schools are interested in squeezing money out of your pocket. If I want to clarify a grammatical point that I come across while reading a book, the teacher says it is covered in the b2 level. :lol: They know their drills :lol: I am paying 500 euros per level for an intensive course at a reputed private school in Germany. :lol:

I have learned German for 27 months by all myself. Today is my third day attending a formal class. I could understand my teacher with no issues at all. Sure it is a teacher talk but still......it is all spoken in German. :D

I am there for experience's sake and the more I listen to my classmates speaking German, the more I have realized that Dr. Brown's listening approach method is the right way to go. The sound system of a foreign language grows naturally like a tree. All you have to do is to water the seed every day and have ample patience. In the end, you will see it grow as a tree. if you listen 6 hours every day for 30 months, you will start speaking naturally and correctly.

Before attending this formal class, I have done 3000+ hours of listening in German. I spoke a few sentences in German. I could see an expression of admiration on the teacher's face and on the faces of other girls. I do not know how good my pronunciation is coming along though there are some signs of optimism judging by their facial expressions. I will keep listening every day.

I am there just to get more LISTENING done and to connect certain words with experiences when a teacher is speaking them. I mean, you can get the same experience with an online teacher on italki. Once I increase my YouTubers watching intake I do not think I need to attend such expensive classes.

It is early days but man even intensive classes are way too slow when it comes to exposing yourself to massive exposure. 30-minute lunch break+30 minutes grammar explanation+1 hour grammar drills+30 minutes writing and no feedback at all on writing error5s, well, it is humanely impossible to check the written work of every student.

The only positive so far for me is to listen to a German native speaker speaking as they speak clearly and repeat the same vocabulary a lot to make their language more comprehensible. This is the only reason that I am attending the class.
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:37 pm

german2k01 wrote:That is the only way to make the fastest progress. The whole German grammar you can study in 7 days it should not take 6 months as is the case in intensive german classes from A2 to B2.

One could look at it in 7 days (and even then the 'whole' German grammar is rather large actually, so in reality it would take much longer, especially for bits that are harder to grasp), but you won't learn it all in 7 days. It is time that cements it.
german2k01 wrote:I am paying 500 euros per level for an intensive course at a reputed private school in Germany. :lol:

Why? You can get an intensive course run by the government for much less. In fact they still do them free for non-EU immigrants. I checked. Had you put yourself on the waiting list 27 months ago you'd have been there already.
german2k01 wrote:I am there for experience's sake and the more I listen to my classmates speaking German, the more I have realized that Dr. Brown's listening approach method is the right way to go. The sound system of a foreign language grows naturally like a tree. All you have to do is to water the seed every day and have ample patience. In the end, you will see it grow as a tree. if you listen 6 hours every day for 30 months, you will start speaking naturally and correctly.
Before attending this formal class, I have done 3000+ hours of listening in German. I spoke a few sentences in German. I could see an expression of admiration on the teacher's face and on the faces of other girls. I do not know how good my pronunciation is coming along though there are some signs of optimism judging by their facial expressions. I will keep listening every day.

german2k01 wrote:I am there just to get more LISTENING done and to connect certain words with experiences when a teacher is speaking them.

No. You're there because after 27 months - 2 years and three months - you still can't/won't speak of your own accord even though the language is on your doorstep. It's the only reason I suggested you go there. Not to learn grammar or words, but to get forced interaction and feedback and a place which wasn't just 'the street'. In any case if they are giving people the grammar, vocab and getting them speaking in 6 months, that's a damn sight quicker than than 30 months, right?
german2k01 wrote:if you listen 6 hours every day for 30 months, you will start speaking naturally and correctly.

Sorry to have to say it, but this is just ideological nonsense. You learn to speak by listening AND speaking. That goes for kids speaking an L1 too. There are plenty people with perfect even native listening ability who can't string a sentence together.
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby druckfehler » Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:37 pm

I have only gotten far in languages in which I was able to interact with native speakers consistently and starting from an early point in the language journey. For me that's the greatest joy language study can provide - a close second is media / literature that would otherwise be inaccessible to me. So far, I haven't had enough motivation to stick with a language I can't see myself speaking on at least a semi-regular basis. So one of your conditions of
*all* by yourself
doesn't apply to me.

However, I have taught myself Persian from scratch to A2 (maybe even the brink of B1) without any formal instruction. I also had very little to no corrections from native speakers, just interaction. And I would say it went absolutely well: I was able to travel Iran and talk to lots of curious Iranians and I held a workshop at one of the Polyglot Gatherings. A couple of native speakers attended the workshop and confirmed that what I taught there was valid (thank goodness :lol: ). Interaction with native speakers was a crucial part of the process. It makes conversation so much easier when you're used to hearing the actual spoken language right from the start. And I don't mean TV or radio, although that can help immensely as well. It was also important that I had some very good textbooks, a podcast (you could count that as a regular language lesson, I don't see much difference) and several websites I studied with. I probably could have continued to improve my Persian skills up to the point where instruction materials would have been scarce.
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby german2k01 » Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:07 pm

In any case if they are giving people the grammar, vocab and getting them speaking in 6 months, that's a damn sight quicker than than 30 months, right?


I am testing everything these days. I will hang there for 6 months to gauge if I end up speaking fluently. I do not know the truth yet. But one thing I can vouch for is Dr. Brown's listening approach. There is a kernel of truth in it. There are students who have not listened a lot to the German language. They are adding sounds from their native language and they are not even aware of it. German teacher is under time pressure to go through lessons. No feedback on their pronunciation. They will keep speaking like that. Once they come across a native speaker on the street or in professional life and after every other sentence they will say "Wie Bitte", which will annoy the hell of both participants. BTW. Dr.Brown would have done better things with his time rather than writing a book and researching language acquisition.

Nonetheless, your point is well taken. Being in the classroom is a less stressful situation and you are free to speak whatever you would like to speak and if a teacher is kind enough to fix your mistake then you are learning something. And you can always get your query answered by a tutor. Therefore, there are pros and cons to attending the formal course. :D
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Re: How far have you gotten *all* by yourself?

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:34 pm

german2k01 wrote:I am testing everything these days. I will hang there for 6 months to gauge if I end up speaking fluently. I do not know the truth yet. But one thing I can vouch for is Dr. Brown's listening approach. There is a kernel of truth in it. There are students who have not listened a lot to the German language. They are adding sounds from their native language and they are not even aware of it. German teacher is under time pressure to go through lessons. No feedback on their pronunciation. They will keep speaking like that. Once they come across a native speaker on the street or in professional life and after every other sentence they will say "Wie Bitte", which will annoy the hell of both participants. BTW. Dr.Brown would have done better things with his time rather than writing a book and researching language acquisition.

By this point though all of this is going to be hard to gauge in a cause-and-effect way. Later on how is it going to be possible to know what led to what? It's like when a person goes to open a notoriously tight jar lid and claims victory after 10 other people successively loosened it. Where is the cause? Where did the thing occur? If after six months you don't speak fluently, what gets the blame: the classes or 2 year's worth of only or mainly inputting whatever is being input? It will impossible to say.

That thing about Dr Brown and sound systems could be theoretically true, but in the actual world with all its variables it doesn't even matter. All foreign L2 speakers have some giveaway sound system failures. They are less detectable by other L2 speakers, more detectable by most natives. To get a perfect sound system - setting aside unproven claims about adult learning - you need to learn it very early. This is why my nephew who was born in Manchester, but moved somewhere else very soon after starting to talk still has a typical Manchester accent with the characteristic sound system. His father doesn't even have a Manchester accent! It's also why it's very hard to entirely get rid of your original accent.

Consider this. I speak Dutch with an accent, but everyone understands me 99% of the time and I understand them. There are times when I might formulate a sentence outside of an expected pattern, and this throws the listener who either misunderstands or quickly reprocesses it. The common thing I have is people think I'm from Belgium. This is really a misleading knee-jerk reaction to explain that I'm speaking perfectly good Dutch, but the accent doesn't sound exactly as expected (though I did learn in Belgium). You will face this a lot. Even when you think you 'sound German' the Germans will hear it differently and sometimes they won't even say anything about it. Some may even say you speak 'perfect German' (which means you're better than the usual attempts they hear) and still not tell you that you have an accent. You will also likely pick up some random sounds peculiar to the area where you live in Germany after some time. So how are you ever going to really know? Who will be able to tell you, because the L2 speaker can't be the judge of that. The only thing that matters is if you talk and the majority understands and you understand them. They only want to give and get information, not marvel at a performance. Though I understand perfectly the desire to want to have the best accent possible.
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