Frequency Dictionaries are ...

General discussion about learning languages

Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Overrated
7
15%
Helpful
26
55%
Incomplete
9
19%
A waste of time
5
11%
 
Total votes: 47

desafiar
White Belt
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:09 am
Languages: English native, studying Spanish.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18131
x 144

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby desafiar » Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:54 pm

I use my frequency dictionary as a sort of diversion from my main Spanish activities. After I've accomplished what I set out to do for the day, or perhaps when I'm too tired to study or even read any further, I may open up my frequency dictionary.

I'm transposing the list into a spreadsheet for personal use. I get a certain amount of pleasure discovering the position a given word is within the list, or finding a word that I'm not familiar with. Since I'm focusing heavily on verbs at this time during my studies, their position in the list is interesting to me.

Working though the frequency dictionary this way is certainly not my highest value activity, but there is no harm and in an odd way it’s enjoyable. Once I've completed the spreadsheet, I'll have sortable data that may provide further insights.
3 x

german2k01
Green Belt
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:16 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: English, Urdu, and German
x 573

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby german2k01 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:24 pm

Using a reading tool like LingQ removes all that complexity that Le Baron and einzelne are talking about. Tracking words is easy across various different texts in LingQ and there is a dictionary built-in option with one click away for checking out the meaning of an unknown word. Technology has come a long way and I think that you do not have to be laborious in your approach.
Frequency dictionaries are not needed if you are using such a tool but for someone who is not computer savvy, they can be a good aid.
2 x

User avatar
einzelne
Blue Belt
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:33 pm
Languages: Russan (N), English (Working knowledge), French (Reading), German (Reading), Italian (Reading on Kindle)
x 2882

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby einzelne » Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:30 am

german2k01 wrote:Using a reading tool like LingQ removes all that complexity that Le Baron and einzelne are talking about.


- horrible cartoonish interface which gives me a feeling of being in a pre-K school.
- lagging, slow software.
- no possibility of integrating your own dictionaries.
- no lemmatization when marking known/unknown words.
- paid membership...

The list can go on.

Thank you but I have a free Kindle app, so I think I'll pass.
3 x

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1341
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3104
Contact:

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby leosmith » Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:31 am

I interpreted it as frequency “lists” rather than “dictionaries”. I put overrated because I created my own frequency list for Tagalog conversation as a reference for the grammar I am writing. I only wanted to use high frequency words and grammar points as used in actual colloquial conversation, so I had a specific need, and it worked out fine.

Apart from that, they are of no help to my way of learning languages. I acknowledge that greats like Iversen and Stuart Jay Raj cram massive amounts of vocabulary when they start learning languages, and get great results. But I don’t do that because I don’t have the patience and I almost exclusively cram things that I get out of my own conversations. Otherwise, I end up learning bookish stuff that I don’t need. I do plenty of reading with languagecrush, so I feel like I’ve got that department adequately covered, especially since reading is of lower priority to me than conversation.
1 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

german2k01
Green Belt
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:16 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: English, Urdu, and German
x 573

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby german2k01 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 am

Thank you but I have a free Kindle app, so I think I'll pass.


You pay somewhere around 200-500 euros for studying a level in the German language at a private school here in Germany. For 200 euros you can buy a life membership at LingQ which I think is a very cost-effective option if you want to study a language for a long period of time, 3 years and beyond.

I use a dictionary option on the Kindle app looking up words is so time-consuming that makes it almost useless. If you already know 99% of the words then perhaps using the Kindle app makes sense, however, if coverage of known words lies somewhere between 6-10% which is most of the case if your level is not advanced as yet then you need tools like LingQ that automates a lot of things, for example, tracking already looked up words in different texts.

In terms of functionality, sure, the software is a little buggy but most of the time you get your reading done.
2 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3512
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9391

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:23 am

german2k01 wrote:Using a reading tool like LingQ removes all that complexity that Le Baron and einzelne are talking about. Tracking words is easy across various different texts in LingQ and there is a dictionary built-in option with one click away for checking out the meaning of an unknown word. Technology has come a long way and I think that you do not have to be laborious in your approach.
Frequency dictionaries are not needed if you are using such a tool but for someone who is not computer savvy, they can be a good aid.

It's not really about being computer-savvy or not (I think the majority here are very savvy), but the content as curated by the compilers of the dictionary. The frequency dictionary is designed to cut out the problem of knowing which words in a core vocabulary it might be best for you to get familiar with, rather than just finding out the meaning of every unknown word you encounter.

I'm a member of LingQ btw and I find it a bit tiresome these days and never use it. I don't know how they have the nerve to charge a membership fee when so much of the content is pirated. As such a lot of the guidance for what to study is via amateur suggestions. That's fine if it's free resources, but if I pay for something I expect teaching and guidance, not access to a randomised automated system.
3 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3512
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9391

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:37 pm

german2k01 wrote:You pay somewhere around 200-500 euros for studying a level in the German language at a private school here in Germany. For 200 euros you can buy a life membership at LingQ which I think is a very cost-effective option if you want to study a language for a long period of time, 3 years and beyond.

Yet the 200-500 euros worth of a language school is designed to get you somewhere rapidly, possibly with a foot up the arse to jog people on. The lifetime LingQ membership has to be 'lifetime' because at that pace and level the learner really will be at it for a lifetime! It should actually be possible to get more than 'a level', especially if a person registers for a specifically-designed immigrant language course.

What we discuss here as private self-directed learning, involves a lot of personalised experimentation. Also chopping and changing, flitting about following theories (of various quality) to try them out; vacillating between intense focus and then near-abandonment - often due to no pressing need to use the languages. This is different from intense guided 'training' to a specific end goal. The former can end up dragged-out over years, the latter is like a summer boot camp.
3 x

User avatar
Iversen
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 14962

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby Iversen » Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:54 pm

leosmith wrote: Otherwise, I end up learning bookish stuff that I don’t need.

I end up learning bookish stuff which I need - stuff exclusive to conversations can come later. And that of course has consequences for the kind of words and expressions I want to learn and the order in which I want to learn them.

Le Baron wrote:The frequency dictionary is designed to cut out the problem of knowing which words in a core vocabulary it might be best for you to get familiar with, rather than just finding out the meaning of every unknown word you encounter.

When I use an ordinary dictionary as basis for one of my wordlists it tells me the meaning of every unknown word I encounter (unless of course the word also is unknown to me in the translation language), and I have the attitude that if I see a word and find it interesting I'll sooner of later find an opportunity to use it. If not then the reason might be that it is so rare that I never encounter it again 'in the wild', but I'm prepared if the miracle happens. In other words choosing words is not a problem.

I'm more worrited about expressions. Expression lists (or even dictionaries) tend to emphasize the most colorful ones at the expense of the less conspicuous ones, and the expressions which are listed in my dictionaries in some articles are not easy to integrate in a standard wordlist. So my command of expressions is definitely lagging behind my vocabulary, both at the passive and the active level. Luckily there is such a thing as extensive reading...
5 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3512
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9391

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:47 pm

Iversen wrote:When I use an ordinary dictionary as basis for one of my wordlists it tells me the meaning of every unknown word I encounter (unless of course the word also is unknown to me in the translation language), and I have the attitude that if I see a word and find it interesting I'll sooner of later find an opportunity to use it. If not then the reason might be that it is so rare that I never encounter it again 'in the wild', but I'm prepared if the miracle happens. In other words choosing words is not a problem.

Yes indeed. The dictionary is for supplying meanings to discovered words and the frequency dictionary (wordlist) is for supplying a corpus of 'recommended' words. Certainly the act of just encountering other words in reading and discovering their meaning is a further/necessary supplement tailored to one's needs.
Iversen wrote:I'm more worrited about expressions. Expression lists (or even dictionaries) tend to emphasize the most colorful ones at the expense of the less conspicuous ones, and the expressions which are listed in my dictionaries in some articles are not easy to integrate in a standard wordlist. So my command of expressions is definitely lagging behind my vocabulary, both at the passive and the active level. Luckily there is such a thing as extensive reading...

Absolutely. I do have some dictionaries with good expressions, but you're right that they serve-up colourful ones that seem to have amused the compilers more than anything. They might even be useful now and again, but I also want a lot of bog-standard, fixed expressions that turn up every day.
2 x

User avatar
einzelne
Blue Belt
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:33 pm
Languages: Russan (N), English (Working knowledge), French (Reading), German (Reading), Italian (Reading on Kindle)
x 2882

Re: Frequency Dictionaries are ...

Postby einzelne » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:39 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Such lists for Ancient Greek have their limits because when you read, say, the aforesaid Thucydides, you have to know ALL the words.


Perseus Vocabulary is, indeed, a wonderful tool. It is also true that when you decide to read a classical text in the original, you want to savor every single sentence, every single word. I cannot imagine how can you practice extensive reading with Greek texts.

If I were responsible for a new edition of classical texts, I would simply gloss every word which occurs only a couple of times in the text.
This is what Reclam tried to implement in their series Fremdsprachentexte with Augustinus' Confessiones — they glossed every word which cannot be find in their frequency dictionary of Latin. They also glossed some tricky grammar points. Basically they did everything to ensure that the only thing you need to read Augustinus is their edition and that's it. They make reading Latin classic as immersive as possible. I wish we had more editions like that.
4 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: emk, themethod and 2 guests