InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

General discussion about learning languages

Learning grammar is ...

Very helpful and practically necessary.
25
68%
Helpful at times.
11
30%
Doesn't help.
1
3%
 
Total votes: 37

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Le Baron
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:30 pm

Cainntear wrote:
Le Baron wrote:
Cainntear wrote:You're putting this backwards though -- native speakers don't "employ described rules", grammar books "describe employed rules".

I'm putting it forwards. I didn't even say that. I said described rules are derived from language in use and those rules which arise from communication agreement in use, not that speakers employ described theoretical rules.

You said:
there is a divide... between the described rules and the uncontrollable mass employment of them.

Them = "described rules", no?

Maybe you didn't mean to say that, but you did say it.

Honestly, just be quiet you ridiculous pedant.
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Cainntear
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby Cainntear » Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:23 pm

Le Baron wrote:Honestly, just be quiet you ridiculous pedant.

You said something.
I disagreed with it.
You said you didn't say that.
I demonstrated that you did.
You called me a pedant.

Ridiculous is the word.
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Le Baron
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:41 pm

Glad you agree with me. I love harmony.
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby rdearman » Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:16 pm

Stop. Play nicely.
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SpanishInput
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby SpanishInput » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:10 pm

BeaP wrote:This is an excellent Spanish grammar for example. It's available in monolingual and bilingual (English) edition. There's a third variant of the same book for American learners. Click 'download a sample chapter'.
https://www.difusion.us/shop/gramatica-basica-del-estudiante-de-espanol-edicion-revisada-2021/
https://www.difusion.us/shop/students-basic-grammar-of-spanish-english-edition/
https://www.difusion.us/shop/gramatica-basica-del-estudiante-de-espanol-2/


Thanks a lot! It really is a lot better than the popular books on Amazon. Too bad there's no Kindle version.

Cainntear wrote:But what if we learn by output? When the English speaker pushes themselves or is pushed to pronounce Spanish T and D dentally, their brain is forced to recognise that this is a meaning movement of the mouth, and therefore build a new phoneme map. Once the dental articulation is recognised as the core of the phoneme, the lenited articulation of D can be recognised as a variant of that.


Thank you, that's a good suggestion. I'm actually reading a book by Gianfranco Conti called "Breaking the sound barrier" and yes, he does include some output exercises to help students become better self-monitors when it comes to sounds. As they say, if your mouth hurts, you're doing it right.
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby Iversen » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:59 pm

I have come fairly late to this thread, so there are a few things that I would like to comment on. Let me first say that I refuse to accept Krashens opposition between acquisition and learning (where the latter includes explicit grammar studies). I know from my own activities that I learn more from input when I'm prepared for it than when I'm totally blank - and grammar studies is one way to get prepared for the acquisition task. Which leaves the question of how to study grammar.

On page 1 ...
BeaP wrote:I find explicit grammar instruction necessary. The question is rather: when and how much grammar should one learn. I think this area has improved a lot in the past years. We used to have B2-C1 grammars only, that wanted to teach everything about the articles, then everything about the pronouns, and so on. Now everything is nicely graded, when you're a beginner, you can read through a grammar for beginners to learn the most important things. You won't be overwhelmed.

Another thing that seems to be common in coursebooks now is that first you have to meet something 'in the wild', by examining authentic texts, then you can be made aware of the logic that's behind the usage, then you can try to practice the same thing yourself, preferably in a concrete situation. Learning solely from input results in a lot of grammar mistakes (in my experience), that the speaker doesn't realise, but they can be corrected.

I don't agree with statement 1 (although I understand why BeaP supports it). For me a grammar book should always be systematic - that is: the articles (and ALL the articles) should be explained in one chapter, then the inflection of nouns, then that of the adjectives etc. etc The order of the topics can be changed, but I like the global overview and compartmentalized logical structure of an 'oldfashioned' grammar book, and I hate been served the knowledge in small bits in a random pedagogical order.

The reason that I can survive such a book is precisely that I don't read everything sequentially. For instance many of those old grammar book spent the first fifty pages on phonology, and if I can't hear the language in action while I read that chapter then it is crushingly boring to read - like watching cooking on TV without having the smells and sizzling sounds. When I do my green sheets I actually disregard the order in the books. For instancce I always try to get the morphology of both articles and adjectives and nouns squeezed into one table, but I also know that you can't do that in a full grammar which should be logical, reasonably complete and nevertheless readable for the average learner. In other words MY personal resumé has to be structured differently from the grammar book (or books) I use - but that doesn't mean that I want grammar books to switch to 'green sheet' format (except maybe in an appendix).

The same thing applies to grammar teaching: I want the full monty in the form of a classical grammar book, but if I discover a curious fact in real life or get a correction then it's logical that I get the relevant bit served on a platter without the ten pages of information which it may be surrounded by in the grammar book. And such tidbits will of course have to be served rather randomly.

As for using standardized names: I prefer using the Latin ones wherever they are relevant. But in some Latin grammars there are long lists of the different uses of the subjunctive, and in the old days you were supposed to learn the Latin name for each of those uses. I do acknowledge that having a list of typical uses can be handy, maybe even with a name tag on each kind of use - but ultimately you have to learn from examples, and in spite of the misgivings of some theoricians, that essentially means that you have to convert the grammatical explanations into automatized hunches based on semantics. The conjunctivus in Latin may be optative, but that information is irrelevant for you when you speak or write the language - here you just have to feel that you can get that semantic nuance by using a subjunctive. OK, there are cases where you don't have the choice: for instance "si" in French must be combined with an indicative, whereas you can play somewhat more expressively with the modi in Italian after "se" - but this just means that the semantics have lost the battle in one isolated case in French, not that semantics never is relevant.

Chomsky fought hard against semantical descriptions in grammar for a reason: they can't be expressed in formulae, and they are mostly rather vague. But all grammar is fundamentally based on semantics, except where something has been automatized to the degree of French "si". A grammatical rule is just the formalization of a habit - and the surprise is that random habits can form systematic structures... but that's apparently the way things work ..
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german2k01
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby german2k01 » Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:29 pm

The real question should be asked when to introduce grammar and in what doses. For example. in our german university, there was a free german class for international students which lasted for 3 hours a day and only one class per week. The German teacher literally undressed the German grammar from head to toe in 3 hours. WTF :D After attending 3 classes to gauge if she could teach something else apart from undressing the german grammar to its tiny parts for its microscopic analysis I had dropped the class altogether. Dr.Krashen is against this kind of grammar teaching. To be honest, he has a valid point that kind of learned knowledge does not lead to language acquisition.

I used German grammar book more like a manual that comes with a device. Sure, I can figure out how a particular device works by pressing different buttons based on my gut feelings but there is a high risk involved if my way of figuring out can break the device altogether. Reading the manual beforehand gives me a sense of security that my way of figuring out was actually correct and if someone else has already figured out how a device works and instructs you to be observant of the steps so more likely you will not break the device.

But that manual/grammar book should be precise and to the point and should not read like a calculus book :D

Seems like these days I am agreeing with Le Baron on many language-related points :D
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby Odair » Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:15 pm

Cainntear wrote:This is a common misunderstanding of what "grammar" is.
What you're talking about is "prescriptivist grammar", where some authority tells people how they should speak. But there's another approach -- "descriptivist grammar", where the rules are written based on how people do speak.

If the rules in a grammar say a native speaker is speaking "wrong", then it's actually the grammar that's wrong.


Descriptivist Grammarians should take into acount a population's attitude and adherence to what is perceived as "correct usage", as well as the stigmatization of diverging variants, for it has a great impact on sentence formation in many contexts.
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Cainntear
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby Cainntear » Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:35 pm

Odair wrote:
Cainntear wrote:This is a common misunderstanding of what "grammar" is.
What you're talking about is "prescriptivist grammar", where some authority tells people how they should speak. But there's another approach -- "descriptivist grammar", where the rules are written based on how people do speak.

If the rules in a grammar say a native speaker is speaking "wrong", then it's actually the grammar that's wrong.


Descriptivist Grammarians should take into acount a population's attitude and adherence to what is perceived as "correct usage", and the stigmatization of diverging variants, for it has a great impact on sentence formation in many contexts.

What do you mean by take into account?
Do you mean descriptivists should only describe what is prescribed by prescriptivists?
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Re: InterConnection between Language Learning and Acquisition

Postby Odair » Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:14 pm

Cainntear wrote: What do you mean by take into account?
Do you mean descriptivists should only describe what is prescribed by prescriptivists?


Only when people try speak and write as prescribed by prescriptivists.
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