Learning Languages in the Classroom and "in the Wild": Second language learning and embodied cognition

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zenmonkey
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Re: Learning Languages in the Classroom and "in the Wild": Second language learning and embodied cognition

Postby zenmonkey » Wed May 04, 2022 4:19 pm

Le Baron wrote:The argument can be made that it is 'useful' to have knowledge of languages for academic purposes, and some do. However, the argument that it is 'essential' is make-believe.


Nothing is essential. You can live abroad entirely in English. People do. Nor has anyone said foreign languages were for the mathematical l field. However, to have access to important research, it may very well be significantly useful and it makes you a better researcher.

In my own area, I remember having an article in Russian that described the evanescent field equations for TIRF microscopy and a unique setup with a drilled wheel for signal/angle coupling (and the math describing that). I spent several days trolling the Slavic & Eurasian department to get help. I even went on a few dates with another graduate student there.

So certainly, not essential. But it would have made me a better researcher if I had known the language, there were a lot of other interesting articles I never read and topics I failed to have access to.

Imagine if I had stuck to it? Maybe a French woman kept me from a different timeline... :lol: https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2018 ... ze2014.pdf
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Re: Learning Languages in the Classroom and "in the Wild": Second language learning and embodied cognition

Postby Le Baron » Wed May 04, 2022 4:30 pm

zenmonkey wrote:
Le Baron wrote:The argument can be made that it is 'useful' to have knowledge of languages for academic purposes, and some do. However, the argument that it is 'essential' is make-believe.


Nothing is essential. Nor has anyone said foreign languages were for the field. However, to have access to important research, it may very well be significantly useful. In my own area, I remember having an article in Russian that described the evanescent field equations for TIRF microscopy and a unique setup with a drilled wheel for signal/angle coupling (and the math describing that). I spent several days trolling the Slavic & Eurasian department to get help. I even went on a few dates with another graduate student there.

So certainly, not essential. But it would have made me a better researcher if I had known the language, there were a lot of other interesting articles I never read.

Imagine if I had stuck to it? Maybe a French woman kept me from a different timeline... :lol: https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2018 ... ze2014.pdf

Some things are essential. Both inside and outside academia. Languages are not one of them. They are merely useful as you well demonstrated. I didn't really want to get trapped on the discussion of academic work though. Only a minority of people who pass through education end up in such research. The teaching in schools is for general education, more the 'liberal education' approach for breadth.

The argument I was making is how languages like French/German are taught in a country like the UK when the fact, whether people like it or not, is that the lingua-franca in the EU is English. It just is and nothing is changing that for the near future. That unless you are specifically living/working abroad (which is again a minority) you don't really need to learn all the languages, and can't anyway. Whilst one can walk about in a major UK city with fellow citizens around you whose language you can't understand. Which could provide a way into learning foreign languages with a ready-made immersion situation. Instead they prefer to stick to a choice determined by tradition and vague ideas about 'culture'. As if learning e.g. Turkish, a language no less valuable than Greek, wouldn't open a door to a vast heritage of culture.

It's bias-led.
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Re: Learning Languages in the Classroom and "in the Wild": Second language learning and embodied cognition

Postby sirgregory » Wed May 04, 2022 4:54 pm

In the USA, most students take two or three years of Spanish or French, starting around 8th or 9th grade. It's taught like any other subject, probably 3-5 hours of classroom instruction per week plus a couple of hours of assigned homework. And there's no selection for aptitude or interest. The results are not very impressive, but what can really be expected under the circumstances?

At the university level, there is selection for aptitude and interest, the courses are more rigorous and intensive, and the results seem to be better, at least for people who major or minor in a language. It would be interesting to do a comparison of people majoring in a language vs those with the opportunity for full-time immersion. Based on casual personal observation, my sense is that the immersion group should get more fluent much more quickly, particularly with speaking and listening comprehension. But the immersion group will also tend to have quite a few holes in their knowledge of grammar etc. The top university students might be competitive in some aspects and their conversational skills would probably improve rapidly if and when they were to get sufficient exposure.

I don't think classroom study is bad per se, it's just incomplete. It's probably somewhat underrated. Immersion works well for getting over the hump that divides those who "speak" a language from those who don't, but imo it's much more effective after some sort of foundation has been established through study.
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Re: Learning Languages in the Classroom and "in the Wild": Second language learning and embodied cognition

Postby mrwarper » Wed May 04, 2022 7:48 pm

sirgregory wrote:In the USA, most students take two or three years of Spanish or French, starting around 8th or 9th grade. It's taught like any other subject [...] The results are not very impressive, but what can really be expected under the circumstances?
I don't know about other people, but I never found languages to be essentially different from any other subject for learners of school age: they require some 'theoretical' study, and some practical work. If taught like any other subject, I would expect results statistically similar to any other subject. This, by the way, is exactly what I think I see around me (i.e. a great many people forget most of all subjects for lack of study, and later maintenance, or both, and then blame the system for their foot shooting), unless someone can provide hard evidence to the contrary.
I don't think classroom study is bad per se, it's just incomplete.
Exactly, and it should be so by design if you go rationally about it -- that's the why of homework (stuff students can do without the teacher). But either your classes include the necessary practical work, or it is assigned to students in the form of homework (in which case it is only their responsibility to do it). The bottom line is, once a course is complete, all classes should enable any complying students to function at whatever the level. Otherwise, there's a problem in syllabus design, methodology --which is what I hear too often where I live--, or personal responsibility --which, surprise, I never hear--. My impression about this is that most claims used to be unfounded, although the contrary has unfortunately become more prevalent over the last 30 years.
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Re: Learning Languages in the Classroom and "in the Wild": Second language learning and embodied cognition

Postby mrwarper » Wed May 04, 2022 7:52 pm

zenmonkey wrote:I even went on a few dates with another graduate student there.
Been there, done that. Except, I was the other student :D
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Re: Learning Languages in the Classroom and "in the Wild": Second language learning and embodied cognition

Postby Cainntear » Wed May 04, 2022 8:09 pm

zenmonkey wrote:
Cainntear wrote:Still, it's a demonstration of inertia. Where are the Polish teachers coming from? What do you do with the experienced teachers who are no longer able to teach their subject because of changes in fashion? Is anyone new going to come into the field if there's a constant churn of languages -- and hence teachers -- every few years...?


And probably for the UK, the new economics and administrative realities of Brexit make it more difficult to get language teachers. It certainly had a direct impact at my daughter's school in Lille, Fr (first stop off the chunnel) where she lost a teacher that went back.

High school teaching is a lifelong career, so I don't think Brexit has made all that much difference in the short term. The only native speakers I know teaching their own languages in school foreign language classes are married with families.

In Scotland, I think we've still got oversupply anyway, as changes in the system a few years ago led to less people studying languages.
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Re: Learning Languages in the Classroom and "in the Wild": Second language learning and embodied cognition

Postby zenmonkey » Wed May 04, 2022 9:32 pm

Cainntear wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:
Cainntear wrote:Still, it's a demonstration of inertia. Where are the Polish teachers coming from? What do you do with the experienced teachers who are no longer able to teach their subject because of changes in fashion? Is anyone new going to come into the field if there's a constant churn of languages -- and hence teachers -- every few years...?


And probably for the UK, the new economics and administrative realities of Brexit make it more difficult to get language teachers. It certainly had a direct impact at my daughter's school in Lille, Fr (first stop off the chunnel) where she lost a teacher that went back.

High school teaching is a lifelong career, so I don't think Brexit has made all that much difference in the short term. The only native speakers I know teaching their own languages in school foreign language classes are married with families.

In Scotland, I think we've still got oversupply anyway, as changes in the system a few years ago led to less people studying languages.


Independent of the small sample size I saw, I haven't really studied the topic and suspect you may be right.

In any case, high school teachers have had a rough(er) few years. I'm thankful for those, especially language teachers, that have stuck around. I know they've had an important and positive impact on my daughters' lives and their emerging trans-cultural attitudes.
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