The future of French

[Le Baron]

I reckon the dynamics are a bit different from India and Pakistan. For one thing, the Mughal Hindustan was pretty well developed before we invaded and messed everything up (silk road, and all that), so after independence it was a pretty weighty trading force. Consider that when looking for a comparator in the former British Empire, you turned to India and Pakistan and not any of the British colonies in Africa, which are far closer comparators to French African colonies.

Regardless, whether Africa or Asia, former British colonies sustained English in the education system, but by the time the former French colonies started talking about losing the French to bolster a national identity, English had grown to a dominant world language and former British colonies were no longer likely to look on it as a symbol of past oppression.
That's very different in former French Africa, because French is being seen more and more as another obstacle between schoolkids and mastery of English.

I made specific reference to India/Pakistan in the context of elites maintaining the language. Whereas in African colonies under the British empire, e.g. Ghana, the language wasn't 'elite' in use. The important distinguishing factor is more that France imposes its language, the British empire didn't; not in the sense of trying to displace indigenous languages or make it 'official'. People can quibble about this point, but it is broadly true.

[lichtrausch]

With French under fire, Mali uses AI to bring local language to students

[...]As Mali’s relationship with French — the language of its former colonial ruler, France — has grown more fraught, an effort to use AI to create children’s books in Bambara and other local languages is gaining momentum. With political tensions high between the two countries, Mali’s military government last year replaced French as the country’s “official” language, instead elevating Bambara and 12 other native languages, though French will still be used in government settings and public schools.

That change has meant there is more political will behind efforts like that of RobotsMali, a start-up that has used artificial intelligence to create more than 140 books in Bambara since last year, said Séni Tognine, who works in Mali’s Education Ministry and has been helping RobotsMali create its books. Now, he said, both the government and the people “are engaged in wanting to learn and valorize local languages.”

RobotsMali uses AI to produce stories that reflect the lives and culture of regular Malians. Instead of simply translating a French classic like “Le Petit Prince” into Bambara, RobotsMali’s team puts a prompt into ChatGPT such as: “Tell me mischievous things kids do.”

The team, whose work was first reported by Rest of World, eliminates examples that would not be relevant to most kids in Mali, then uses Google Translate — which added Bambara in 2022 and employs AI to improve its translations — to do a first round of translation. Experts like Tognine then correct any mistakes. Another staff member uses a variety of AI image creators to illustrate the stories, ensuring that the characters are relatable to Malian kids, and then turns to ChatGPT to create reading comprehension tests[...]

[Iversen]

(...) a switch to English (or Russian!) would be extremely costly and cumbersome, so they would probably choose just to let their local version French live its own quiet life until it fizzles out as in South Eastern Asia.

If changing the language used for education requires a revolution, then that's a hard change to make.

And that's precisely where the use of AI for internal communication and production of learning tools across internal language boundaries or between those and English could undermine the position of French. One of the few technologies the African people have adopted wholeheartedly is the smart phone - also for kids. And they may prefer reading about mischievous local children than about small French princes.

OK, there are still lot's of highranking local people around who have learned French, and they may resist the change, but that was also the case in SE Asia, and there any trace of French has almost disappeared. Except of course in the art of baking bread - nobody in their sane mind would trade a properly baked French baguette witrh a slightly salty crisp crust for the inedible English concoction of water and sawdust and glue called sliced toast bread.

[DaveAgain]

(...) a switch to English (or Russian!) would be extremely costly and cumbersome, so they would probably choose just to let their local version French live its own quiet life until it fizzles out as in South Eastern Asia.

If changing the language used for education requires a revolution, then that's a hard change to make.

And that's precisely where the use of AI for internal communication and production of learning tools across internal language boundaries or between those and English could undermine the position of French. One of the few technologies the African people have adopted wholeheartedly is the smart phone - also for kids. And they may prefer reading about mischievous local children than about small French princes.

OK, there are still lot's of highranking local people around who have learned French, and they may resist the change, but that was also the case in SE Asia, and there any trace of French has almost disappeared. Except of course in the art of baking bread - nobody in their sane mind would trade a properly baked French baguette witrh a slightly salty crisp crust for the inedible English concoction of water and sawdust and glue called sliced toast bread.

The problem I had in mind was a legal one. As I understand it the various independence treaties of the French-African/Sahal countries require French to be the language of education.

Some of the countries seem to have interpreted this to allow primary schools to teach using a local language as the language of instruction, restricting teaching using French as the language of instruction to secondary and higher education, but the requirement is still there, and the French government seems to me the kind of institution that would insist on those treaty clauses being honoured.

[Cainntear]

The problem I had in mind was a legal one. As I understand it the various independence treaties of the French-African/Sahal countries require French to be the language of education.

Some of the countries seem to have interpreted this to allow primary schools to teach using a local language as the language of instruction, restricting teaching using French as the language of instruction to secondary and higher education, but the requirement is still there, and the French government seems to me the kind of institution that would insist on those treaty clauses being honoured.

I think they would struggle to get any international body to support it, though. The requirement for French as a language of eductation in order to allow independence is basically something done under duress, and attempting to enforce it decades after independence is basically impinging upon the principle that a sovereign government shouldn't be bound by earlier governments' wishes. Yes, there's a general exception for international stuff, but I don't think the UN would force former colonies to respect a treaty with a former colony that says "you'll only get independence from us if you keep our language". I also don't think France would declare the independence void and commit troops to reinvading and recolonising the countries in question. If they did, that would probably mean the end of the EU, anyway...

[DaveAgain]

The problem I had in mind was a legal one. As I understand it the various independence treaties of the French-African/Sahal countries require French to be the language of education.

Some of the countries seem to have interpreted this to allow primary schools to teach using a local language as the language of instruction, restricting teaching using French as the language of instruction to secondary and higher education, but the requirement is still there, and the French government seems to me the kind of institution that would insist on those treaty clauses being honoured.

I think they would struggle to get any international body to support it, though. The requirement for French as a language of eductation in order to allow independence is basically something done under duress, and attempting to enforce it decades after independence is basically impinging upon the principle that a sovereign government shouldn't be bound by earlier governments' wishes. Yes, there's a general exception for international stuff, but I don't think the UN would force former colonies to respect a treaty with a former colony that says "you'll only get independence from us if you keep our language". I also don't think France would declare the independence void and commit troops to reinvading and recolonising the countries in question. If they did, that would probably mean the end of the EU, anyway...

The legal problem would be domestic. An objection could be raised before a policy became a law.

Maintaining/expanding the international reach of the French language seems to be a policy objective of the French government, so I assume they'll use the tools available to maintain the status quo.

[PeterMollenburg]

Stories like this out of Mali are potentially great for language diversity should this kind of idea catch on, but possibly not great for French.

A few years back we had some media outlets reporting that French would be one of the most spoken languages in the world, or even the most spoken by 2050. Exaggeration indeed, and that exaggeration acknowledged somewhat in some of the same reports, but I'd say it's simply unrealistic. I feel like perhaps two or three countries since then have demoted French in their language hierarchy if you will due to poor relationships with France. While it may take a while for a country to phase out a colonial language like French, French has not ever been as secure in Africa as English in most of it's former colonies and even beyond. It's odd when you consider how much damage the English speaking colonial powers have done too. No colonial powers have behaved like saints, and yet it seems the French language really gets targeted when relationships turn sour (often with English speakers commentating from the sidelines too, cheering for the downfall of France and/or the French language), while English just keeps spreading regardless - half the world being annoyed with the US won't stop the spread of English. Well I guess French made more of a mark than Dutch, in terms of language legacy, so it's not done so bad, really. It's a shame that many have endured suffering in that process, no matter which language was the common denominator.

I guess English displaced local languages earlier on than the French language in Africa and the world seems to have since developed more of a conscience with anything that looks suspiciously like colonialism, not to mention the rate at which news spreads nowadays doesn't allow for more powerful countries getting away with poor behaviour as easily before someone notices. Should France's track record continue in Africa, I just can't see such numbers ever being reached. Some would say that France is not entirely to blame either as other powers are vying for a slice of the African pie.

So here's to language diversity, but I just hope the French become more adept at healing their African relationships. I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but one can only hope.

[emk]

As for the French Academy: I don't see it having any particular influence on Québecquois - the influence there comes from English.

Quebec French is heavily influenced by French media. I can very easily hear the difference between professional TV announcers covering La Révolution tranquille in the 60s, and the French I regularly hear on Québécois podcasts today. The entire professional register, including the default accent of a sizeable fraction of educated people, has shifted pretty dramatically towards Parisian and continental norms in 50 years. (EDIT: See discussion below.) The informal register? Honestly, I don't understand it as well as I'd like.

(Although the classic Bon Cop, Bad Cop offers a handy lesson on vulgar language.)

And of course, Quebec has its own language standards committees. I don't think the committees have a huge influence, but I will always admire them for inventing pourriel for "spam."

[Sizen]

Quebec French is heavily influenced by French media. I can very easily hear the difference between professional TV announcers covering La Révolution tranquille in the 60s, and the French I regularly hear on Québécois podcasts today. The entire professional register, including the default accent of a sizeable fraction of educated people, has shifted pretty dramatically towards Parisian and continental norms in 50 years.

I grew up hearing this accent a lot whenever I'd go to visit my grandparents in Quebec and I've always loved it. Still very recognizably Quebecois, but sort of the French language equivalent of the Mid-Atlantic accent. However, I'd say I hear more and more "natural" Quebecois accents now than in the past, even among professional announcers, news casters, etc. This example from Radio Canada from today is a rather easily recognizable example of the more natural accent.

I texted my grandmother, a native French speaker born in Quebec in the 40s who reads/watches the news in French every day, to ask her what her opinion was and this is what she had to say:

Je crois qu'en effet l'accent est tout à fait québécois mais la langue utilisée, en particulier chez ceux qui font les nouvelles et les personnes "éduquées", est en général très bonne tout en ayant des accents québécois. Pour le reste, à la télé, j'en entends de toutes les couleurs, expressions françaises, québécoises, anglaises sutout avec un accent québécois que parfois j'ai peine à comprendre. Je ne vois pas de tendance à la parisienne à part quelques nouvelles expressions.

(To give more context, she finds that the accent among the younger generations is diverging enough from what she's used to that she sometimes has a hard time understanding her own language. This isn't helped by the fact that she's been living out West closer to us for the past 10 or so years.)

I also asked my father, a native French speaker born in the 60s in Quebec, what he thought and he didn't mince words:

That's a load of hooey. It's always been a sort of Mid-Atlantic accent. Nothing to do with Paris.

That being said, La qualité du français à Radio-Canada has this to say:

2.1.1 Les prononciations utilisées par le personnel à l’antenne de la Radio et de la Télévision françaises de Radio-Canada sont généralement considérées comme les prononciations de référence par les autres radiodiffuseurs, les artisans de la presse écrite, de la presse électronique et des autres médias, ainsi que par la population canadienne en général. Le personnel à l’antenne doit être conscient de cette réalité et en apprécier l’importance.
2.1.2 Les prononciations utilisées à la Radio et à la Télévision françaises de Radio-Canada doivent se rapprocher le plus possible des prononciations en usage dans le reste de la francophonie.
2.1.3 Les prononciations proposées par les conseillers linguistiques peuvent changer pour refléter l’usage et l’évolution de la langue.

So there is some truth to the idea that Radio Canada, which may serve as a standard to others, tries to maintain a more "Standard" language, which would include European and Parisian elements.

Pretty much all dubbing that happens in Quebec tends to have a very standard European accent that goes beyond a Mid-Atlantic one and further into the equivalent of Received Pronunciation, on the other hand. A recent exception I can think of is the animated Amazon Prime show "Hazbin Hotel" that got both a European French and Quebecois French dub.

In any case, do with this what you will.

[emk]

I texted my grandmother, a native French speaker born in Quebec in the 40s who reads/watches the news in French every day, to ask her what her opinion was and this is what she had to say:

Je crois qu'en effet l'accent est tout à fait québécois mais la langue utilisée, en particulier chez ceux qui font les nouvelles et les personnes "éduquées", est en général très bonne tout en ayant des accents québécois. Pour le reste, à la télé, j'en entends de toutes les couleurs, expressions françaises, québécoises, anglaises sutout avec un accent québécois que parfois j'ai peine à comprendre. Je ne vois pas de tendance à la parisienne à part quelques nouvelles expressions.

Thank you to your grandmother, and I largely agree with many of the things she says here.

And yeah, "Parisian" might have been a wrong choice on my part—a lot of my French exposure comes from people who grew up in Normandy, and who were often educated around Paris. So they speak with a fairly "neutral" accent by French standards, but I do hear some difference between their accents and a real Parisian accent, which sounds slightly "exaggerated" to my slightly Norman-biased ears.

But I do have a bunch of documentaries from Quebec in the 60s, many of them full of politicians and professional news announcers. And the Quebecois accents were very strong and clear, across the board. It reminds me a lot of the way I heard a strong Maine accent regularly during my childhood, but it has noticeably declined even during my lifetime—this is clear even in my own accent; I grew up saying "idear" and "hot spar" and "the city of Auguster." And my accent was very mild compared to some of my friends. (My grandmother worked in radio, and she had a Boston accent that had been carefully scrubbed by good vocal training. She still said "idear.") But I say "idea" now. And maybe I'm wrong, but when I listen to those old recordings from Quebec, and compare them to what I hear from politicians, announcers and professionals today, I really do suspect that the "professional" accent—at least for many people—has shifted in much the same way that my faint Maine accent has faded. But this is just the opinion of an outsider with a bunch of 60-year-old TV recordings, and I defer to the locals who are old enough to remember the 60s!

I used to listen to the Radio Canada science show Les Années Lumières pretty consistently, and there was a huge range of accents among the guests. The current host, Sophie-Andrée Blondin, has a delightful but relatively "soft" Quebec accent. But there were interviews with researchers I could barely understand at all, and with researchers who could have just gotten off a plane from France.

Here's a fun example from this Sunday, contrasting Sophie-Andrée Blondin with a guest who has a very clear accent.

...

Huh, you know what, I've been skipping around the different sections of this Sunday's broadcast, and almost everyone being interviewed has Quebecois vowels, to varying degrees. This is faintly surprising to me; I remember more guests who were closer to European pronunciation in the past.

And unfortunately, I can't trust my personal experience in Montreal here, because lots of people will naturally reduce their Quebecois vowels when speaking to a foreigner. So even if someone sounds fairly European when they're speaking to me, they may sound quite different the moment I leave. It doesn't help that if someone sounds like Louis-José Houde, I am usually standing there and looking confused. That radio guest I linked above is about the limit of my listening skills.

So there is some truth to the idea that Radio Canada, which may serve as a standard to others, tries to maintain a more "Standard" language, which would include European and Parisian elements.

Yeah, that's almost certainly part of what has been throwing me off. Well, that and people who are subtly adapting their accent when they speak to me in person. I do still think there has been some generational drift towards European norms, but I may have been overestimating it. Many thanks to your family for their corrections!