I' would like to receive a piece of advice

[Cavesa]

first of all I'd like to apologize of my mistakes. I've been learning english for about seven months and focusing more in listening/reading skills then this post probabily gonna have a lot of mistakes.

Welcome! No need to apologize, you write quite well, and it is normal to make mistakes. You're learning and have solid achievements to be proud of.

I'm brazillian that never had a glimpse of language learning untill last year. With this new discover I also have begun to read more about germany. results: I fell in love with the country, the culture and the job's oportunitties that fluency offer in my profession.

I'm a doctor from a country neighbouring Germany. Yes, there are opportunities in healthcare and the work conditions are overall very good. My problem is huge dislike for the German culture, but if you like it, awesome. It is a solid plan, Germany is really importing a lot of healthcare workers, and you have very good chances of success, if you do all your paperwork, put in the effort in finding a good place (even getting something less prestigious at first, like a small town, and then moving on to something really great after that).

but I am in a language learning dillema.
I am too far of fluency in english, but I dearly want to learn german and put the english aside(without too much focus or active learning)

I'll graduate in nursing degree at a middle of 2026 and Germany offers a lot of oportunitties for brazilians at this niche. if I begins to learn german now, I have a pretty hunch that I'll reach a pretty high level till' my graduation( I will study every single day as I have been studying english) but If I keep going with english for more ≈1 year I will be at a good decent level in the "most important" language of the world. I don't know what I gonna do and don't have any friend for talking about it.

Get rid of the "English is the most important language in the world" thinking. For you, it is not the most important language, as you dream about something else, where English is worthless. No German employer will care much about nurse's English, all of them will care about your German. The "pretty high level" will have to be B2ish, which is definitely doable for someone used to nursing studies.

In your opinion or If you were me, should I put the english aside and start to learn german as fast as possible or wait about a year for acquire a good level of english? I don't like of the idea of two languagues at the same time because I'm only a rookie in this world.

obs: I'm put a lot of effort in reading/listening in the last months then I have a decent level of compreension and could use this for learn german, but without improving vocabulary, grammar or pronunciation in english, only passive learning.

I didn't look for any word for this text(I guess this is my first text in english lol) nor corrected anything in google translate or Grammarly, hence one more time: sorry for my mistakes.

It is normal to learn two languages at once, especially is one is just in maintanance mode, with some tv shows or books from time to time (that would be English in your case). So, if you limit English to just not losing it completely and slowly improving, while having fun, no harm done. And you already have a solid intermediate level in writing, so nothing to be ashamed of or really work on too hard as a priority (to not lose it. This happens more at the low levels).

Were I in your place, I'd focus on German, as that's a language giving you many more opportunities right now, as you've established your goals quite clearly.

A piece of advice from someone, who was learning languages while in medschool (so I can relate to your situation): you will need time, you will need to adapt. Learn more intensively during holidays, much less during exam times. So, don't postpone it for a whole year. And take a language exam as soon as you are ready, to save yourself a lot of stress during the rest of the paperwork, to not lose opportunities just because the exam dates suddenly won't match your needs, application deadlines, or new waves of pandemia. If you start now, you can pass your B2 exam in 2024 or 2025, and therefore have more peace and time and energy for your final exam at university, and for the rest of the stuff necessary for moving abroad.

I think a young person should focus on professional training primarily. At the age of 45 I'm preparing for a C2 Spanish exam, but I can't do another university degree, and it's a fact that I won't become a doctor or an engineer. My aspirations or dreams don't matter. That ship has sailed. For you now is the time to take the most out of your professional training. In only 7 months you've achieved a very good level of English, which shows excellent study and time management skills. You could communicate everything you wanted in a successful way.

No offence meant, but this is nice only as long as you live in a privileged enough country and do a degree leading to solid work conditions. For people in less rich countries or with horrible work conditions in their field, this is a horrible piece of advice leading to destroyed lives. It is a better life to know a language and not be a doctor than to be a doctor and have to stay in a trash system, like the healthcare in my country (and from all I heard, Brazil might be in some ways even more challenging).

Had I followed this advice that everyone had been giving me, I would have had better grades in medschool perhaps, but those are totally worthless. I would have had to stay in my home country, be a worthless slave, exploited, basically extorted, and probably already suicidal or addicted to something (like 1/3 to 1/2 of the doctors there). What a prize for devoting oneself only to the main professional training This happens to nursees too, and even more.

Everyone giving me the "just focus on your main studies, languages are secondary" advice had no good of mine on heart, they just hoped to get another slave that stays because of linguistic incompetence.

So, I definitely recommend everybody to treat at least one (well chosen) foreign language as a part of their priority formation, exactly while they are young. To have more freedom upon graduation. Especially people, who have limited choices within their home countries in their field (as healthcare and many other similar fields are usually heavily regulated on national level).

At 45, most people won't break their slave chains and move abroad, as they already have more rooted families, they have gotten a bit lighter chains as a reward for 20 years of suffering, they have built more of a personal life to lose (bought houses, care for elderly parents, have friends and fear not making new ones). That's why languages are more essential while you prepare for your career. At 25-30, it is much easier to leave.

At 45, the ship has sailed for most people, they won't move abroad.

(And btw I know a few, who became doctors at such an age. It is just harder for many practical reasons, just like moving abroad)

[lusan]

first of all I'd like to apologize of my mistakes. I've been learning english for about seven months and focusing more in listening/reading skills then this post probabily gonna have a lot of mistakes.

Welcome! No need to apologize, you write quite well, and it is normal to make mistakes. You're learning and have solid achievements to be proud of.........
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At 45, the ship has sailed for most people, they won't move abroad.

Very wise indeed!

[BeaP]

No offence meant, but this is nice only as long as you live in a privileged enough country and do a degree leading to solid work conditions. (...) (And btw I know a few, who became doctors at such an age. It is just harder for many practical reasons, just like moving abroad)

I can only hope that I'll never be offended by someone only for having a different opinion than mine. Thanks for sharing your experience, it was very interesting to read. It's very hard to talk about these things in general, that's why I've told the OP to try to find a friend who knows their circumstances and take my advice with a grain of salt. I clicked on the profile of the OP, and while they joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:02 am, they were last active Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:07 am. If this means that this member doesn't even come back to read the suggestions, I can rephrase my advice in a more straightforward way: Someone with outstanding learning skills can aim to be a doctor, not a nurse. I didn't want to put it so bluntly, because the information was very scarce.

[Cavesa]

I can only hope that I'll never be offended by someone only for having a different opinion than mine. Thanks for sharing your experience, it was very interesting to read. It's very hard to talk about these things in general, that's why I've told the OP to try to find a friend who knows their circumstances and take my advice with a grain of salt. I clicked on the profile of the OP, and while they joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:02 am, they were last active Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:07 am. If this means that this member doesn't even come back to read the suggestions, I can rephrase my advice in a more straightforward way: Someone with outstanding learning skills can aim to be a doctor, not a nurse. I didn't want to put it so bluntly, because the information was very scarce.

I'm glad we agree on the value of seeing various points of view, thanks. If I was in a different field than healthcare, I probably could have agreed a bit more with you about the educational priorities. However, I am not. Based on your profile, you are Hungarian. I guess that many nurses or doctors in Hungary would agree more with me, the whole region in this field is at least considering moving abroad as an option.

Sure, we don't know, whether OP will come back for the advice. That's up to them. But in general, I'd recommend more listening to advice from people in a similar situation, than necessarily friends knowing their circumstances but nothing about the problem in general.

But overall, this is one of the very typical and rather common situations, where English is simply not a priority at all, it doesn't bring much value. Just today, I've read that the three most advantageous languages for nurses wishing to move to a (or another) European country are French, German, Dutch in this order. https://www.redaccionmedica.com/seccion ... uropa-7945

[BeaP]

Based on your profile, you are Hungarian. I guess that many nurses or doctors in Hungary would agree more with me, the whole region in this field is at least considering moving abroad as an option.

I don't work on this field, but from the little information I can gather I'd say it depends on a lot of things. We have a private system co-existing with the public one, where doctors can earn a decent (or more than decent) salary. Some specialisations can lead to an outstanding wealth (gynaecology, plastic surgery), while some lead to poverty (GP, paediatrician). People often say that the real problem is that the system has feudalistic traits: some professors who have always had good connections take the opportunities and the money. But we're getting close to the field of politics dangerously, so I'll stop here. I'm sure nurses in the public sphere and a lot of doctors would like to migrate, but I'm not convinced the lack of language knowledge is the most important hindrance.

After finishing university I used to work as a teacher in a public high school for 7 years. What I earned couldn't even be called a salary, it was pocket money. My colleagues didn't want to change because they were afraid. They were afraid that they were not good enough. They were afraid that at other workplaces their performance would be measured, criticised and maybe belittled. I think your personal experience, especially if it has some emotional connections, weighs a lot in these issues. From what I've seen, I really believe that people who are not confident about their professional values and skills are less likely to move, not just to a country with higher salaries, but to a better-paid job or the private system. I'm quite happy to see that the variety of the choices has widened: when I was a high school student it was only Austria or Germany, but now my former classmates live all over the world. It's obviously not a research, just my subjective impression: those who managed on the long run were all confident, sometimes well-connected, often having good language skills.

[Le Baron]

Teachers and health professionals everywhere have stagnating salaries. I don't want to push so hard about the country comparison because it causes some people to go into a frothing rage, but in line with relative cost of living nurses and teachers are also swindled and underpaid in UK (as many Spanish nurses/doctors discovered) and 'privileged' western Europe. Sure there are some limited places in the privatised sectors, and the underpaying of people in public service is a factor in trying to abolish them and open the entire arena to corporate sharks.

There are doctors who live here in the Netherlands on a salary lower than might be expected and living in small flats. Only a few are making a mint. I wouldn't expect any professional to sacrifice their entire career in battling and changing the problems at home, but then also bailing out to serve another country isn't so great either. Western European governments/companies love employing people trained at someone else's expense, while the place that trained them suffers a skills drain. And still people working in a foreign language as an immigrant employee often still don't reap the same benefits of citizens.

And watch it get worse in Western Europe as the EU contracts back into monetarist austerity following the pandemic. Streets aren't paved with opportunity in Western Europe, especially if one happens to hate the culture.

[Cavesa]

Teachers and health professionals everywhere have stagnating salaries. I don't want to push so hard about the country comparison because it causes some people to go into a frothing rage, but in line with relative cost of living nurses and teachers are also swindled and underpaid in UK (as many Spanish nurses/doctors discovered) and 'privileged' western Europe. Sure there are some limited places in the privatised sectors, and the underpaying of people in public service is a factor in trying to abolish them and open the entire arena to corporate sharks.

There are doctors who live here in the Netherlands on a salary lower than might be expected and living in small flats. Only a few are making a mint. I wouldn't expect any professional to sacrifice their entire career in battling and changing the problems at home, but then also bailing out to serve another country isn't so great either. Western European governments/companies love employing people trained at someone else's expense, while the place that trained them suffers a skills drain. And still people working in a foreign language as an immigrant employee often still don't reap the same benefits of citizens.

And watch it get worse in Western Europe as the EU contracts back into monetarist austerity following the pandemic. Streets aren't paved with opportunity in Western Europe, especially if one happens to hate the culture.

1.It's not just about the money, that's what many people forget. In heavily regulated professions, it is also about the post-university education system, about freedom or lack of freedom of choosing where to live and work, about quality of work in the field. It is not just about money.

OP doesn't say it is just about money, they actually fell in love with the whole idea of going to Germany, with the culture, probably with the work conditions possible, etc.

2.As I have first hand experience, I definitely cannot agree with this overall message. While many things are bad anywhere, but the people rightfully complaining about the problems in the old EU countries have no clue how much worse it is in the other countries. When a French or a Spaniard rightfully complain about not too high wages, they forget that a Czech has the same costs of living but the wages are three times smaller still. I don't even dare to guess the Brazilian ones.

3.It is always about compromises. There are actually tons of opportunities but you need to pick what compromises you are able to accept, or not. Right now, I have a job that I could even keep doing here without any problem and am already paid really well. But it is a field that is not intellectually interesting at all, so I am going somewhere else. But in general, the opportunities are there, just not of all types, and you can of course encounter stuff like open discrimination (happened to me) or a less open but still existing one (happaned too), or difficulties in the other areas of integration, and you will also be at a disadvantage for reasons on your side sometimes.

But it is usually still worth it. There is no point in useless sacrifice. And let's not forget that some people return after years or decades abroad, and those can really change their country of origin thanks to new experience. Much more, than had they stayed.

And if a country cannot give sufficiently good future to their brightest and most hard working people, it deserves to be drained until it learns better. That's the simple truth. If not even pandemia teaches a country to treat better doctors and nurses, it deserves not to have them.

[Le Baron]

And if a country cannot give sufficiently good future to their brightest and most hard working people, it deserves to be drained until it learns better. That's the simple truth. If not even pandemia teaches a country to treat better doctors and nurses, it deserves not to have them.

I actually agree with quite a lot of your reply. Apart from the above; and not because I don't think it's a fair demand against neglectful governments. Rather that it only punishes the ordinary population.
Even the so-called "rich" EU countries have been exposed as not giving a damn about their service professions, or any service jobs. The opportunities are also dwindling as costs for self-funding of continuing education fly upwards.

[Cavesa]

I actually agree with quite a lot of your reply. Apart from the above; and not because I don't think it's a fair demand against neglectful governments. Rather that it only punishes the ordinary population.
Even the so-called "rich" EU countries have been exposed as not giving a damn about their service professions, or any service jobs. The opportunities are also dwindling as costs for self-funding of continuing education fly upwards.

But a large part of the ordinary population is co-responsible for all this. The worst thing to do is to keep "protecting" the ordinary population too much, so that they don't even believe in the struggles and keep supporting the governments in the wrong decisions. If they repeatedly vote for the governments making the wrong decisions, they are guilty too.

For example Romanians have already achieved some pretty big improvements, because the doctors and nurses (and others) had been leaving in sufficient numbers. Now, it is not that easy of a choice anymore for the new young professionals, because a part of the conditions has really improved under the pressure. (My source: some young and older doctors from Romania)

Sometimes, the only way to save a system is to let it crumble (or at least face a very real possibility of crumbling in spite of all the efforts of the exploited people with saviour complex and addicted to benzos). Because as long as the ordinary people aren't "punished" (which is not the totally appropriate word, but ok), they will believe the lies like "doctors are just greedy" or "there are enough nurses, they are lying in the media" or "oh, they have a little bit lower salaries but also a lot lower living costs". And as long as they believe that, nothing changes. It is all about demands of the society as a whole.

An important point that really is the most pertinent about this thread: It is better to be ready to leave in case of need (including having a B2/C1 certificate in a language) and choose whether or not to, than to give up on that, become part of the system, and just keep complaining "of course I'd leave, if only languages weren't so hard and my job left me enough time to learn".

Getting a B2 or C1 certificate in a well chosen language should be one of the top priorities in education of absolutely everyone (except for people with a health condition limiting their learning abilities of course). Postponing this "after the professional training" means giving up on freedom of choice in most cases.