As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

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As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:25 pm

DW wrote:Bilingual schools across France are struggling to find people who can teach in German as English becomes more popular. A group of parents have set up a recruiting agency to help the government.

This is mainly about Alsace and the dearth of German teachers. The French government must now regret having spent so long deprecating and trying to destroy minority/regional languages around France. Instead of opening the door for universal French it has just let its great enemy English fill all the gaps.
If you fancy teaching German in France and getting a job with an actual contract, you may be in luck! Although the article does also say:
DW wrote:Herbst said teaching was an increasingly unpopular career in France; one of the reasons is pay, which is over 30% less than the average teacher's salary in Germany.

https://www.dw.com/en/as-kids-learn-eng ... a-60524729
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:08 pm

Le Baron wrote:The French government must now regret having spent so long deprecating and trying to destroy minority/regional languages around France.

I wish that were true but I think it is doubtful. France is not a signatory of the ECRML (European Charter of Regional/Minority Languages) - it's been twenty years. Shameful.

The DGLFLF (love the French love of acronyms) is responsible for the policy around language and multilingualism. While it "recognises" regional and minority languages, it is definitely anchored in the historic "French first" policy.

My opinion about this quickly enters into the realm of politics that are not really for this site. So I'll hold off.

What I can say about German in French education - from personal experience since my four daughters took German (Spanish and English) in bilingual schools in France and Germany (the 4th is currently studying to pass her Abi/Bac in Lille and one lived in the Alsace region) is that there is certainly a plethora of less than stellar English teachers using language methods from the 70's (and I recognize that it is a poor generalization, but something I saw in Paris, Lille, Bordeaux and the Ile de France region) still while German teachers seem to be rarer, but more exceptionally dedicated to their students and the language. Being a language teacher in the French school system is hard.
Alsace does things differently - has its own education and quota programs - so don't necessarily compare that to the rest.

Want to see how dynamic the French government is not with regards to minority languages? Check out the dates on the posts here:
https://www.culture.gouv.fr/Thematiques ... -Outre-mer

As one of my daughters just moved to Mayotte and we decided to see what material is being promoted by the government for learning the local languages, we spent a bit of time these last months looking for it. There is basically nothing.
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:50 pm

zenmonkey wrote:My opinion about this quickly enters into the realm of politics that are not really for this site. So I'll hold off.

It looks like your opinion is likely pretty close to mine. I've posted here before about both official French attitudes to minority/regional languages and also the failure of general foreign language teaching (or learning) in places where French is the majority language or wrongly perceived to be. I've seen it first hand in France, Belgium, Switzerland. When I learned that quite a lot of pupils in Luxembourg also prefer to speak 'Luxembourgish', then perhaps German, perhaps French, but increasingly English as a second language, this did not surprise me.

In particular in Switzerland the Francophone attitude to learning German, even when it is both an official and the majority language of the country, is very poor. The same is not quite the case in the German speaking areas.

I love French, but think the attitude of official Francophone organisations, that French is destined (and very much ought to be) to be the future lingua-franca of the planet, to be wildly delusional.
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:59 pm

Le Baron wrote:In particular, in Switzerland the Francophone attitude to learning German, even when it is both an official and the majority language of the country, is very poor. The same is not quite the case in the German-speaking areas.

Both German/French communities haven't fully embraced the other, but, yes, certainly the Francophone attitudes are more 'recalcitrant'.
Part of it is possibly the peninsular attitudes of the cantons, a part might be the natural defensive nature of a minority language. But when I was studying at the Goethe Institute in Munich (where I lived for 6 years) we had 3 students in their late 20s, early 30s that spoke primarily Graubünden Italian and Romansch and were there to strengthen their German (in a B1) class. That type of language plurality is what France has been always against. And yes, we are probably of the same mind.

On the other hand, typically there are a lot of language identity and political issues in countries with regional languages (Spain, Belgium - I'm looking at you). I just wish that there was a stronger sense of 'Fraternite' with language diversity in France.

Le Baron wrote:I love French, but think the attitude of official Francophone organisations, that French is destined (and very much ought to be) to be the future lingua-franca of the planet, to be wildly delusional.

'Wildly delusional' is 100% accurate. Almost makes me think they are wannabee Esperantists. ;)
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:40 pm

It's not just about the minority languages not being supported at all. (As the result,only very old patients spoke them, when I worked in Lorraine). It is also about the stupid focus on just English, instead of languages of neighbours. Czechs are having a rather similar problem on the other side from Germany, even though they are less aware of it for now.

Everyone has been pushed to focus on English, with the "English is the international language and all that you need" brainwashing, which is simply not true. And now, what a surprise, we need other languages and the population cannot speak them. Especially the areas near the borders are suffering from it. I sometimes wonder, whether this isn't being done on purpose, to lower the population's ability to migrate to better paid jobs. People leaving or commuting to Germany or Luxembourg are a commonly discussed topic in the region.

So, the lack of German teachers for this type of schools is just a reflection of both the overall struggles of teachers (there are now even protests in France, from what I've last heard) and the whole education system underestimating the importance of German, or other languages of the neighbours.

Back in France: vast majority of my colleagues had been from Lorraine or Alsace. All of them could have profited from German in various areas of life (the usual answer to anything you needed was "va à Sarrebrück", there were also some germanophone patients, germanophone colleagues the hospital regularly collaborated with at least till covid, etc). But the only person in my generation, who had an ok level of German, had just arrived from Reunion. Nobody from the locals spoke it, and all of them had had English classes at school instead, which was a totally useless language in their daily lives.

zenmonkey wrote:
Le Baron wrote:I love French, but think the attitude of official Francophone organisations, that French is destined (and very much ought to be) to be the future lingua-franca of the planet, to be wildly delusional.

'Wildly delusional' is 100% accurate. Almost makes me think they are wannabee Esperantists. ;)


Definitely. What we need in this century is a much stronger language pluralism. We need to finally enforce the idea of two foreign languages for every person with standard education in the EU (=highschool), with focus on languages of your neighbours. Whether they are neighbours just across the border, or minority speakers in another village near you, or an important minority in your town.

French won't be Lingua Franca, and the politics and the overall culture is actually doing the opposite of trying to make it the Lingua Franca. Even oppression of the minority languages won't help make it more attractive or dominant, if they leave a lot of their prestigious spaces (for example at universities) to English. But it can be one of the common choices for people learning two foreign languages, just like German should be one of the common choices for the French learning two foreign languages (which should be the majority of the population).
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby DaveAgain » Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:29 pm

Cavesa wrote:Back in France: vast majority of my colleagues had been from Lorraine or Alsace. All of them could have profited from German in various areas of life (the usual answer to anything you needed was "va à Sarrebrück", there were also some germanophone patients, germanophone colleagues the hospital regularly collaborated with at least till covid, etc). But the only person in my generation, who had an ok level of German, had just arrived from Reunion. Nobody from the locals spoke it, and all of them had had English classes at school instead, which was a totally useless language in their daily lives.
The article says that "Teaching is bilingual in at least one-third of schools in Alsace." So the local government seems to be aware of the value of German skills to Alsace residents.
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby Kraut » Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:04 pm

There may be another reason: an obligatory language certificate in English!! (which level ?) before they give you Licence, BTS and DUT. Who would like to become a teacher of German in France with your clientele cut in half`?


https://www.alsace-lorraine.org/blog/2020.html

Ces textes, de facto liberticides pour le choix de la certification linguistique dans l’enseignement supérieur, viennent de façon discrète et au mépris total des engagements internationaux, franco-allemands et nationaux de la France, de compromettre à terme définitivement et gravement l’enseignement de l’allemand en France et tout particulièrement Alsace et en Moselle.

Ils visent à imposer l’obligation de la passation d’une certification en anglais pour la délivrance de toutes les licences, des BTS et des DUT. Il s’agit d’imposer à tous les élèves et étudiants de France en formation supérieure l’apprentissage de l’anglais durant leurs études professionnelles ou supérieurs via une certification obligatoire de leurs connaissances et maîtrise de cette langue.

Cette certification interviendra d’abord pour certains diplômes (langues, commerce, communication etc..) dès la rentrée 2020, puis s’étendra jusqu’en 2023 pour toutes les autres filières. Ces diplômes en pratique ne pourront plus être délivrés qu’eux seuls étudiants ayant étudié et certifiés préalablement en anglais.
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby Cavesa » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:55 am

DaveAgain wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Back in France: vast majority of my colleagues had been from Lorraine or Alsace. All of them could have profited from German in various areas of life (the usual answer to anything you needed was "va à Sarrebrück", there were also some germanophone patients, germanophone colleagues the hospital regularly collaborated with at least till covid, etc). But the only person in my generation, who had an ok level of German, had just arrived from Reunion. Nobody from the locals spoke it, and all of them had had English classes at school instead, which was a totally useless language in their daily lives.
The article says that "Teaching is bilingual in at least one-third of schools in Alsace." So the local government seems to be aware of the value of German skills to Alsace residents.


But it is not just about the teaching being officially bilingual. It is also a lot about communicating the value of the teaching to the students and their parents, motivating real acceptance of the language, out of school work on it, and keeping the skills and expanding them even after leaving obligatory education. That's a whole other level of work, necessary for success.

Kraut wrote:There may be another reason: an obligatory language certificate in English!! (which level ?) before they give you Licence, BTS and DUT. Who would like to become a teacher of German in France with your clientele cut in half`?

https://www.alsace-lorraine.org/blog/2020.html

...


Yes, this is exactly a part of the wrong system. Thanks for sharing the article. Even the kids in a school teaching German (or in German) will be pushed by the system to focus more on English. This not only takes away a part of the work (a family choosing how to spend a limited budget on out of school activities will pay for English tutoring, not German one), but also a lot of the prestige. The teachers already have a lot of struggles, and teaching a subject without much of a prestige (as it is being channeled to English) doesn't help with motivation. And given how extremely competitive the French education system is, I have no doubts the serious interest in German (and other living languages) will fall after this change.
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:52 am

There seems to be some confusion in the discussion between baccalauréat (high school requirements) in a region trying to strengthen local bilingualism and national projects for college-level degrees. Alsace just runs things slightly differently. In the rest of the country, German is already a niche language in the Bac system. My daughters had the opportunity of learning German because they had lived in Germany and already had that advantage. But for a large number of students taking German, it is taken as the 2nd or 3rd language option already (LV2 or LV3).

It's been 20 years or so that the interest in a second and third language has significantly been reduced because of the reforms towards stronger STEM studies except in specialized schools that have an Abi/Bac program or European sections. While my ex-wife was able to include Greek/Latin in her studies (along with English and German) Access to Greek or Latin has become more difficult English is more often chosen as LV1 and the rise of Spanish and Chinese and other language options in some schools has pushed German to a weaker position. For many years, it was the 'hard' (elite) LV1 choice.

What I observed over the last 20 years has been an actual improvement in language education at the bac level - reforms lead to treating English not just as an exercise in academic translations where kids learned to only read and translate back and forth but truly to master it as a tool to communicate. Again, this is just my observation from a very limited slice of experience (and the constant battle against some of the fixed ideas) of the Education Nationale both in France and at French schools abroad and both in the private and public sector.

As to the obligation of certification for the DUT, BTS, etc. it is not an obligation of a level but that the schools actually deliver the means to complete a test. The level or type of test is the choice of the school (at least for now).

The official text is "Les candidats au brevet de technicien supérieur se présentent au moins à une certification en langue anglaise faisant l’objet d’une évaluation externe et étant reconnue au niveau international et par le monde socio-économique."
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Re: As kids learn English, France runs short on German teachers

Postby Kraut » Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:49 am

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