Oulipo approach to language learning

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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby daegga » Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:47 pm

Paul Nation et al did something similar up to the 8k level (for learning vocabulary up to the 10k level) for English
https://www.wgtn.ac.nz/lals/resources/p ... es/readers
You could combine chapters from all 3 levels to make a book of increasing difficulty.
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby reineke » Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:40 pm

The instructors in those videos take time to explain when a word or expression is used, when it should not be used etc. When writing fiction one needs to establish some kind of a narrative framework. That will involve some basic vocabulary relating to ships/farming/school whatever. New practice words need to fit within this framework. Melville introduced one unique word for every 12 running words. He didn't skip on high frequency words like whale/ship/captain/wave/sails etc. He could have, of course used more ornate lower frequency words. He was context jumping too. It's not like every sentence smells of fish and brine. Let's say he used low frequency nouns and adjectives. What would happen to comprehensibility in a Baroque style Moby Dick where you couldn't find a single reference to whale/ship/fish/rock/sea/wind/sailor/captain? How natural would that read?

SubtlexUS
SubtlexUS is database containing word frequencies based on English-US movies and TV series subtitles.
The main strengths of this database are the following :

Based on spoken-like language
Based on 50 million words

Moby Dick

What follows is some thematic vocabulary the book is often criticized for as a language learning tool that still made it in the top 30k most common spoken words in the movies and series database.

10k-30k+ range

tattooed 9516
reef 11069
cod 11860
coral 13,518
mast 13,573
chowder 17,022
harpoon 19,036
breezy 19277
buoy 19,565
pulpit 20,162
quahog 20,163
whaling 20,658
Ahab 21,504
wheelbarrow 22,457
shipwreck 23451
schooner 24,568
surmise 26,668
squall 27,386
porpoise 28,033
Leviathan 28,743
brine 29,344
whaler 32,558
castaway 32787
fishery 36231
billow 39726
billows 39,727
billowing 42351

Words he didn't use like tightwad, warthog, warhorse, pomegranate, shallots and brouhaha are above 30k
codpiece is there too: 30,430
Totally a word to know.
chard: 39,870

rubberneck 48k
>50k
rubbernecking, safflower
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby Iversen » Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:08 am

"There now is your insular city of the Manhattoes, belted round by wharves as Indian isles by coral reefs—commerce surrounds it with her surf. Right and left, the streets take you waterward. Its extreme downtown is the battery, where that noble mole is washed by waves, and cooled by breezes, which a few hours previous were out of sight of land. Look at the crowds of language learners there. Circumambulate the city of a dreamy Sabbath afternoon. Go from Corlears Hook to Coenties Slip, and from thence, by Whitehall, northward. What do you see?—"

I see words on the first page of Moby Dick which would have to be substituted, but with what and to what effect? It would hardly be same book any more. Further on, where for instance the upper 10K or 20K words are allowed, the damage would be less conspicuous (cfr the statistics supplied by Reineke) but still not negligeable. Maybe the rewriting shouldn't be targeted at absolute beginners - better write new books from them which are ultra-simple from the start and then gradually become more demanding. And reserve the rewritten classics for learners with a modicum of arcane vocabularium under their belt.
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby einzelne » Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:42 am

Iversen wrote:I see words on the first page of Moby Dick which would have to be substituted, but with what and to what effect? It would hardly be same book any more. Further on, where for instance the upper 10K or 20K words are allowed, the damage would be less conspicuous (cfr the statistics supplied by Reineke) but still not negligeable.


Yes, we already have Emoji Dick, thank you very much.
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby einzelne » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:00 am

reineke wrote:The instructors in those videos take time to explain when a word or expression is used, when it should not be used etc. When writing fiction one needs to establish some kind of a narrative framework.


Indeed, but my book is not designed for training active skills but for the expansion of receptive vocabulary. (Personally, I always found this explanation useless, especially if they are not in your target language. I prefer to have a recording and some written notes with explanations to consult if I have a need).

The question of how many high frequency words you would need to produce a semblance of meaningful narrative (or dialogue, or description) is an interesting one. I don't know the answer. I suppose the further you go along the frequency list, the harder it will be to retain the density of new words. This literary experiment could give us some concrete numbers!

Personally the distribution 30/120 would make me more than happy. That means that 1 min of audio (usually it's 150 words) would give the possibility to review 30 words in a meaningful context (or at least semblance of it).
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby einzelne » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:03 am

luke wrote:Get a computational linguist on your side and your "dreams" can all come true.


I like your idea as an art project! Still I find it problematic from the point of view of language learning pedagogy.
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby reineke » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:53 am

Anyone remember what happened when Homer designed a car? Oulipo and computational linguists are engineers of words but if they're not setting the parameters the results could get interesting. Like this post.

Ishmael's codpiece

"Context! We need more context!"

https://melvilliana.blogspot.com/2014/0 ... piece.html

Rabelais is available in Modern French. It's kind of like L'Étranger for students of French only on the opposite side of the difficulty spectrum. It's not the OP's thing but I'm mentioning it to others interested in challenging their reading skills. Melville was influenced by Rabelais and for whatever reason Rabelais is as dense or denser than Melville. The total number of unique words I posted in the past may not be correct but according to several sources the text is plenty dense.

Frequent words

The Bible (King James Edition); Anonymous / Various
Frequent: unto, lord, isreal, shall, god, moses, jesus, david, offering, tabernacle

Wonderful Wizard of Oz; Baum, Frank
Frequent: woodman, scarecrow, witch, tin, emerald, monkeys, kansas, brains, winged

White Fang; London, Jack
Frequent: musher, beaver, sled, dogs, cherokee, snarl

The Republic; Plato
Frequent: guardians, unjust, true, injustice, state, gymnastic, rulers, democractical

Alice's Adventures In Wonderland; Carroll (C.L. Dodgson), Lewis
Frequent: gryphon, turtle, caterpiller, mock, dodo, mouse, rabbit, hedgehog

Origin of the Species; Darwin, Charles
Frequent: species, varieties, subaerial, selection, sterility, plants, modification, forms, variability

Communist Manifesto; Marx, Karl/Engels, Friedrich
Frequent: bourgeois, proletariat, communists, antagonisms, socialism, production, class, feudal, reactionary, exploitation,

Paradise Lost; Milton, John
Frequent: wonderous, heaven, satan, dominations

Apology; Plato
Frequent: corrupter, accusers, demigods, socrates, oracle, indictment

Gargantua and Pantagruel; Rabelais, Francis
Frequent: codpiece, catchpole, ballocks, dingdong, fart, chitterlings, gymnast, arse

"Had Rabelais never written his strange and marvellous romance, no one would ever have imagined the possibility of its production. It stands outside other things — a mixture of mad mirth and gravity, of folly and reason, of childishness and grandeur, of the commonplace and the out-of-the-way, of popular verve and polished humanism, of mother-wit and learning, of baseness and nobility, of personalities and broad generalization, of the comic and the serious, of the impossible and the familiar. Throughout the whole there is such a force of life and thought, such a power of good sense, a kind of assurance so authoritative, that he takes rank with the greatest; and his peers are not many...

"Rabelais’ style has many different sources. Besides its force and brilliancy, its gaiety, wit, and dignity, its abundant richness is no less remarkable. It would be impossible and useless to compile a glossary of Voltaire’s words. No French writer has used so few, and all of them are of the simplest. There is not one of them that is not part of the common speech, or which demands a note or an explanation. Rabelais’ vocabulary, on the other hand, is of an astonishing variety. Where does it all come from? As a fact, he had at his command something like three languages, which he used in turn, or which he mixed according to the effect he wished to produce."

Introduction to the English text
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1200/1200-h/1200-h.htm

"Rabelais is perhaps the most difficult of French authors."
Encyclopedia.com
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby luke » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:07 am

reineke wrote:Oulipo and computational linguists are engineers of words but if they're not setting the parameters the results could get interesting. Like this post.

Ishmael's codpiece

"Context! We need more context!"

Frequent words

Gargantua and Pantagruel; Rabelais, Francis
Frequent: codpiece

"Rabelais is perhaps the most difficult of French authors."
Encyclopedia.com

You bring up very good and important points. Since we are designing "thought experimenting" a learning tool and the domain of frequent words can be quite author specific, let's allow our computational linguist some important parameters and leeway.

* Use the author's frequent words as a basis for our "frequency list".
* In the synonym lookup table, allow the computational linguist to provide some small "definitions" from the author's word domain (or very frequent words if the "definition" needs it).

Example: codpiece (67) = protector (7) of the family (31) jewels (10)

(number of times used in Gargantua and Pantagruel).

So, based on a large corpus, a computer could know "codpiece" is very infrequent, but for Gargantua and Pantagruel, rather frequent, and therefore merits giving the reader some additional contextual assistance as it is introduced.

The computer program could also determine that "protect", "family", and "jewel", are not extremely author or domain specific, and therefore are useful as "contextual assistance".

Gargantua and Pantagruel wrote:Chapter 3.VIII.—Why the codpiece is held to be the chief piece of armour amongst warriors.

Oulipo wrote:Why the codpiece, a protector of the family jewels, is important to fighting men.


The inventions coming from this new branch of computational linguistics can called, "Oulipogorithms" (Oulipo Algorithms). ;)
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby einzelne » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:13 pm

luke wrote:Example: codpiece (67) = protector (7) of the family (31) jewels (10)


You killed me!
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Re: Oulipo approach to language learning

Postby reineke » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:21 pm

luke wrote:
reineke wrote:Oulipo and computational linguists are engineers of words but if they're not setting the parameters the results could get interesting. Like this post.

Ishmael's codpiece

"Context! We need more context!"

Frequent words

Gargantua and Pantagruel; Rabelais, Francis
Frequent: codpiece

"Rabelais is perhaps the most difficult of French authors."
Encyclopedia.com

You bring up very good and important points. Since we are designing "thought experimenting" a learning tool and the domain of frequent words can be quite author specific, let's allow our computational linguist some important parameters and leeway.

* Use the author's frequent words as a basis for our "frequency list".
* In the synonym lookup table, allow the computational linguist to provide some small "definitions" from the author's word domain (or very frequent words if the "definition" needs it).

Example: codpiece (67) = protector (7) of the family (31) jewels (10)

(number of times used in Gargantua and Pantagruel).

So, based on a large corpus, a computer could know "codpiece" is very infrequent, but for Gargantua and Pantagruel, rather frequent, and therefore merits giving the reader some additional contextual assistance as it is introduced.

The computer program could also determine that "protect", "family", and "jewel", are not extremely author or domain specific, and therefore are useful as "contextual assistance".

Gargantua and Pantagruel wrote:Chapter 3.VIII.—Why the codpiece is held to be the chief piece of armour amongst warriors.

Oulipo wrote:Why the codpiece, a protector of the family jewels, is important to fighting men.


The inventions coming from this new branch of computational linguistics can called, "Oulipogorithms" (Oulipo Algorithms). ;)



family - no 363
jewels no. 6300
codpiece: 30,430

The thing is, are we were supposed to bloat the text with redundant high frequency clues or replace high frequency words and bake something new that has the taste, density and consistency of a brick?

Note that in the sentence and subsequent text relating to "Why the codpiece is held to be the chief piece of armour amongst warriors." there's no need to add anything to explain this word. Rabelais does a great job at explaining what's a codpiece.

Some enlightening excerpts:

Why the codpiece is held to be the chief piece of armour amongst warriors.

"Will you maintain, quoth Pantagruel, that the codpiece is the chief piece of a military harness? It is a new kind of doctrine, very paradoxical; for we say, At spurs begins the arming of a man. Sir, I maintain it, answered Panurge, and not wrongfully do I maintain it. Behold how nature, having a fervent desire, after its production of plants, trees, shrubs, herbs, sponges, and plant-animals, to eternize and continue them unto all succession of ages (in their several kinds or sorts, at least, although the individuals perish) unruinable, and in an everlasting being, hath most curiously armed and fenced their buds, sprouts, shoots, and seeds, wherein the above-mentioned perpetuity consisteth, by strengthening, covering, guarding, and fortifying them with an admirable industry, with husks, cases, scurfs and swads, hulls, cods, stones, films, cartels, shells, ears, rinds, barks, skins, ridges, and prickles, which serve them instead of strong, fair, and natural codpieces. As is manifestly apparent in pease, beans, fasels, pomegranates, peaches, cottons, gourds, pumpions, melons, corn, lemons, almonds, walnuts, filberts, and chestnuts; as likewise in all plants, slips, or sets whatsoever, wherein it is plainly and evidently seen, that the sperm and semence is more closely veiled, overshadowed, corroborated, and thoroughly harnessed, than any other part, portion, or parcel of the whole..."

"There are three causes, said the monk, by which that place is naturally refreshed. Primo, because the water runs all along by it. Secundo, because it is a shady place, obscure and dark, upon which the sun never shines. And thirdly, because it is continually flabbelled, blown upon, and aired by the north winds of the hole arstick, the fan of the smock, and flipflap of the codpiece. And lusty, my lads."

"Will you have a piece of velvet, either of the violet colour or of crimson dyed in grain, or a piece of broached or crimson satin? Will you have chains, gold, tablets, rings? You need no more but say, Yes; so far as fifty thousand ducats may reach, it is but as nothing to me. By the virtue of which words he made the water come in her mouth; but she said unto him, No, I thank you, I will have nothing of you. By G—, said he, but I will have somewhat of you; yet shall it be that which shall cost you nothing, neither shall you have a jot the less when you have given it. Hold! —showing his long codpiece—this is Master John Goodfellow, that asks for lodging!—and with that would have embraced her; but she began to cry out, yet not very loud. Then Panurge put off his counterfeit garb, changed his false visage, and said unto her, You will not then otherwise let me do a little? A turd for you! You do not deserve so much good, nor so much honour; but, by G—, I will make the dogs ride you;—and with this he ran away as fast as he could, for fear of blows, whereof he was naturally fearful..."

"Besides all this, I have lost a great deal in suits of law. And what lawsuits couldst thou have? said I; thou hast neither house nor lands. My friend, said he, the gentlewomen of this city had found out, by the instigation of the devil of hell, a manner of high-mounted bands and neckerchiefs for women, which did so closely cover their bosoms that men could no more put their hands under. For they had put the slit behind, and those neckcloths were wholly shut before, whereat the poor sad contemplative lovers were much discontented. Upon a fair Tuesday I presented a petition to the court, making myself a party against the said gentlewomen, and showing the great interest that I pretended therein, protesting that by the same reason I would cause the codpiece of my breeches to be sewed behind, if the court would not take order for it. In sum, the gentlewomen put in their defences, showing the grounds they went upon, and constituted their attorney for the prosecuting of the cause. But I pursued them so vigorously, that by a sentence of the court it was decreed those high neckcloths should be no longer worn if they were not a little cleft and open before; but it cost me a good sum of money. I had another very filthy and beastly process against the dung-farmer called Master Fifi and his deputies..."


"Indeed, said Pantagruel, thou art a gentle companion; I will have thee to be apparelled in my livery. And therefore caused him to be clothed most gallantly according to the fashion that then was, only that Panurge would have the codpiece of his breeches three foot long, and in shape square, not round; which was done, and was well worth the seeing. Oftentimes was he wont to say, that the world had not yet known the emolument and utility that is in wearing great codpieces; but time would one day teach it them, as all things have been invented in time. God keep from hurt, said he, the good fellow whose long codpiece or braguet hath saved his life! God keep from hurt him whose long braguet hath been worth to him in one day one hundred threescore thousand and nine crowns! God keep from hurt him who by his long braguet hath saved a whole city from dying by famine!"

"Panurge began to be in great reputation in the city of Paris by means of this disputation wherein he prevailed against the Englishman, and from thenceforth made his codpiece to be very useful to him. To which effect he had it pinked with pretty little embroideries after the Romanesca fashion. And the world did praise him publicly, in so far that there was a song made of him, which little children did use to sing when they were to fetch mustard. He was withal made welcome in all companies of ladies and gentlewomen, so that at last he became presumptuous, and went about to bring to his lure one of the greatest ladies in the city. And, indeed, leaving a rabble of long prologues and protestations, which ordinarily these dolent contemplative lent-lovers make who never meddle with the flesh, one day he said unto her, Madam, it would be a very great benefit to the commonwealth, delightful to you, honourable to your progeny, and necessary for me, that I cover you for the propagating of my race, and believe it, for experience will teach it you. The lady at this word thrust him back above a hundred leagues, saying, You mischievous fool, is it for you to talk thus unto me? Whom do you think you have in hand? Begone, never to come in my sight again; for, if one thing were not, I would have your legs and arms cut off. Well, said he, that were all one to me, to want both legs and arms, provided you and I had but one merry bout together at the brangle-buttock game; for herewithin is—in showing her his long codpiece—Master John Thursday, who will play you such an antic that you shall feel the sweetness thereof even to the very marrow of your bones. He is a gallant, and doth so well know how to find out all the corners, creeks, and ingrained inmates in your carnal trap, that after him there needs no broom, he’ll sweep so well before, and leave nothing to his followers to work upon.
my codpiece alone shall suffice to overthrow all the men; and my St. Sweephole, that dwells within it, shall lay all the women squat upon their backs. Up then, my lads, said Pantagruel, and let us march along."

Chapter 3.VII.—How Panurge had a flea in his ear, and forbore to wear any longer his magnificent codpiece.

"I did not take it on before this morning, and, nevertheless, am already in a rage of lust, mad after a wife, and vehemently hot upon untying the codpiece-point; I itch, I tingle, I wriggle, and long exceedingly to be married, that, without the danger of cudgel-blows, I may labour my female copes-mate with the hard push of a bull-horned devil..."

"In what concerneth the breeches, my great-aunt Laurence did long ago tell me, that the breeches were only ordained for the use of the codpiece, and to no other end; which I, upon a no less forcible consequence, give credit to every whit, as well as to the saying of the fine fellow Galen, who in his ninth book, Of the Use and Employment of our Members, allegeth that the head was made for the eyes. For nature might have placed our heads in our knees or elbows, but having beforehand determined that the eyes should serve to discover things from afar, she for the better enabling them to execute their designed office, fixed them in the head, as on the top of a long pole, in the most eminent part of all the body—no otherwise than we see the phares, or high towers erected in the mouths of havens, that navigators may the further off perceive with ease the lights of the nightly fires and lanterns. And because I would gladly, for some short while, a year at least, take a little rest and breathing time from the toilsome labour of the military profession, that is to say, be married, I have desisted from wearing any more a codpiece, and consequently have laid aside my breeches. For the codpiece is the principal and most especial piece of armour that a warrior doth carry; and therefore do I maintain even to the fire (exclusively, understand you me), that no Turks can properly be said to be armed men, in regard that codpieces are by their law forbidden to be worn."

"Of this race came Aesop, some of whose excellent words and deeds you have in writing. Some other puffs did swell in length by the member which they call the labourer of nature, in such sort that it grew marvellous long, fat, great, lusty, stirring, and crest-risen, in the antique fashion, so that they made use of it as of a girdle, winding it five or six times about their waist: but if it happened the foresaid member to be in good case, spooming with a full sail bunt fair before the wind, then to have seen those strouting champions, you would have taken them for men that had their lances settled on their rest to run at the ring or tilting whintam (quintain). Of these, believe me, the race is utterly lost and quite extinct, as the women say; for they do lament continually that there are none extant now of those great, &c. You know the rest of the song. Others did grow in matter of ballocks so enormously that three of them would well fill a sack able to contain five quarters of wheat. From them are descended the ballocks of Lorraine, which never dwell in codpieces, but fall down to the bottom of the breeches..."

"But in that he chargeth the defendant that he was a botcher, cheese-eater, and trimmer of man’s flesh embalmed, which in the arsiversy swagfall tumble was not found true, as by the defendant was very well discussed.
The court, therefore, doth condemn and amerce him in three porringers of curds, well cemented and closed together, shining like pearls, and codpieced after the fashion of the country, to be paid unto the said defendant about the middle of August in May. But, on the other part, the defendant shall be bound to furnish him with hay and stubble for stopping the caltrops of his throat, troubled and impulregafized, with gabardines garbled shufflingly, and friends as before, without costs and for cause..."

"Ah, Badebec, Badebec, my minion, my dear heart, my sugar, my sweeting, my honey, my little c— (yet it had in circumference full six acres, three rods, five poles, four yards, two foot, one inch and a half of good woodland measure), my tender peggy, my codpiece darling, my bob and hit, my slipshoe-lovey, never shall I see thee!"

"At which my rogue Bashaw being very much aggrieved would, in transpiercing his heart with my spit, have killed himself, and to that purpose had set it against his breast, but it could not enter, because it was not sharp enough. Whereupon I perceiving that he was not like to work upon his body the effect which he intended, although he did not spare all the force he had to thrust it forward, came up to him and said, Master Bugrino, thou dost here but trifle away thy time, or rashly lose it, for thou wilt never kill thyself thus as thou doest. Well, thou mayst hurt or bruise somewhat within thee, so as to make thee languish all thy lifetime most pitifully amongst the hands of the chirurgeons; but if thou wilt be counselled by me, I will kill thee clear outright, so that thou shalt not so much as feel it, and trust me, for I have killed a great many others, who have found themselves very well after it. Ha, my friend, said he, I prithee do so, and for thy pains I will give thee my codpiece (budget); take, here it is, there are six hundred seraphs in it, and some fine diamonds and most excellent rubies. And where are they? said Epistemon. By St. John, said Panurge, they are a good way hence, if they always keep going. But where is the last year’s snow? "

"Whereat Panurge drew out his long codpiece with his tuff, and stretched it forth a cubit and a half, holding it in the air with his right hand, and with his left took out his orange, and, casting it up into the air seven times, at the eighth he hid it in the fist of his right hand, holding it steadily up on high, and then began to shake his fair codpiece, showing it to Thaumast.
After that, Thaumast began to puff up his two cheeks like a player on a bagpipe, and blew as if he had been to puff up a pig’s bladder. Whereupon Panurge put one finger of his left hand in his nockandrow, by some called St. Patrick’s hole, and with his mouth sucked in the air, in such a manner as when one eats oysters in the shell, or when we sup up our broth. This done, he opened his mouth somewhat, and struck his right hand flat upon it, making therewith a great and a deep sound, as if it came from the superficies of the midriff through the trachiartery or pipe of the lungs, and this he did for sixteen times; but Thaumast did always keep blowing like a goose..."
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