Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
You mean when you're 20 and madly in love with someone who speaks a romance language and you want to speak the language of love to your beloved?
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
BeaP wrote:1. Did you experience the same or is it utterly subjective (just my problem)?
I would conclude that it's utterly subjective as you put it. It depends on the personality whether or not distractions and jumping to the latest more efficient or more entertaining learning system are issues that would see the learner best suited to the learning environment of 20-30 years back.
I'm from your generation as well. I am fond of paper books, good old thorough language courses and even old technology as I have less trust in modern devices.
I don't use FB, Twitter (ex for the 6 Week Challenge a couple of times) and other forms of social media (except for this forum). I hate distractions and maybe that comes in part from my growing up in a less distracting era. I sit down to learn and not to be pestered by beeps and posts.
Mind you, there are learners who use these forms of media as excellent resources for learning and therefore these tools add to the learning experience rather than take away from it.
For me this era is much more advantageous. I would never have found a forum in which I've received immense support and realised I was far from my goals (and still am). In the 90s I thought learning a language was a language course or two in university and job's done. Perhaps I would've eventually figured out my flaws, or perhaps I would've waltzed around thinking I was super advanced after a few courses. It didn't happen is I lacked motivation.
I have succumbed to marketing, to being fooled and to spreading myself thin over too many resources, often at the same level (and perhaps this came from the 90s in which one way to get more exposure was to do more courses with audio and drills and grammar and verbs and so on).
In summary, if you work out what you need eventually in the learning process (diverse resources, not spread too thin, challenging at all levels), the tools are there nowadays. I can still indulge in my beloved paper dictionaries, paper books and courses, but also store it all on devices and take it with me to work, on holiday, in the car and so on. There's never been a better time than now, IF you are willing to use the right resources and not be distracted.
BeaP wrote:2. If yes, what do you think we can keep from the old-school methods / possibilities to help our learning now?
Thanks a lot in advance for all comments.
You're welcome
What can we keep from the old? If you like paper books, if you like old school courses in hefty bulky formats and paper dictionaries like I do, then simply keep using them when it suits. When it doesn't suit (on the run, holidays with limited bagage etc), take your electronic device(s) and learn away!
We have e-readers, podcasts, Netflix, the internet for various activities including news from abroad etc, video learning platforms that slow down speech, have thousands of videos at different levels, podcasts with transcripts and slowed down audio if you will as well as high quality audio courses and course books as in the past.
Like any learner learning languages nowadays are often advised, go with what interests you (whether that's entertaining, a course or sth else) and stay in the game day in day out.
What modern day resources might lack that old-fashioned ones seemed to have a lot of in the big languages is tons of thorough text books or courses. The old ones are still around today, many of them, often for digital download or easy purchased (we couldn't find them that easy in the past), so you see we're spoiled now with all the other new resources too. Just stay focused and consistent and you'll do okay.
As a personal side note...
My children are being raised multilingual by myself. The ease (again) of access to books, ebooks, films, streaming, music, podcasts is very good for the popular languages. For the rare, it's well, still very difficult and for the medium-popularity languages you can still get your hands on resources much easier than two or three decades ago. I doubt I'd be at my level of French and my kids at their corresponding level without the modern tools we have.
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
I do agree that traditional course books have gone downhill over the past couple decades, and that is a loss - but it is more than compensated by the amazing amount of other material we now have access to.
Even in the past five or ten years it has become significantly easier, at least in the US, to find target-language books, podcasts, and tv shows. I remember struggling to find enough material to complete the first super challenge ... and that was in French. Now I can find almost anything I want.
I do find that it's harder to find actual movies here, especially classic movies. Fifteen years ago you just ordered a DVD from Netflix (and they had everything, it seemed) or went to the "foreign" section of a local rental store. Today streaming services are so fragmented in the US that you'd need dozens of subscriptions to find what you'd want.
I think the number of gimmicky programs is actually about the same. Our local library was full of programs like "learn Japanese in your car with five minutes a day," and had few quality (and expensive) programs. Today the gimmicky programs are all online.
Overall though ...
Even in the past five or ten years it has become significantly easier, at least in the US, to find target-language books, podcasts, and tv shows. I remember struggling to find enough material to complete the first super challenge ... and that was in French. Now I can find almost anything I want.
I do find that it's harder to find actual movies here, especially classic movies. Fifteen years ago you just ordered a DVD from Netflix (and they had everything, it seemed) or went to the "foreign" section of a local rental store. Today streaming services are so fragmented in the US that you'd need dozens of subscriptions to find what you'd want.
I think the number of gimmicky programs is actually about the same. Our local library was full of programs like "learn Japanese in your car with five minutes a day," and had few quality (and expensive) programs. Today the gimmicky programs are all online.
Overall though ...
I agree.iguanamon wrote:I believe we currently live in the golden age of language learning.
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
kanewai wrote:I do agree that traditional course books have gone downhill over the past couple decades, and that is a loss - but it is more than compensated by the amazing amount of other material we now have access to.
I, too, agree here, on both counts; but with one other point for the internet - it is via the internet that I know what the good, old books are, and via the internet that I buy them.
I tried learning Latin as a teenager. I tried picking up language textbooks from bookshops - excellent university bookshops. But even in those days, there was plenty of second-rate stuff out there, and that's what I ended up with. It was a significant factor in not succeeding, even if lack of hard graft/wrong expectations/etc. were bigger factors.
Now I can get a wide spectrum of opinion on what the best book of all time is, and often buy it, even if it was an obscure publication in the 60s.
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
The answer to the question of the OP seems to be a resounding NO. As iguanamon aptly put it, we are living in a golden age for language learning. It’s as simple as that. On the other hand, the real questions may be whether people are learning more languages today and how well are they using all the resources available.
The elephant in the room here is of course English that is so ubiquitous. Let’s put it aside. It seems to me that more people are probably dabbling in different languages because so much material is freely available.
At the same time, could we say that proficiency levels in foreign languages have gone up over the years ? I don’t know but I do have a bit of a sneaking suspicion that the actual results are not that great simply because learning a language, especially at an adult age, is a lot of hard work regardless of the plethora of learning materials available.
The elephant in the room here is of course English that is so ubiquitous. Let’s put it aside. It seems to me that more people are probably dabbling in different languages because so much material is freely available.
At the same time, could we say that proficiency levels in foreign languages have gone up over the years ? I don’t know but I do have a bit of a sneaking suspicion that the actual results are not that great simply because learning a language, especially at an adult age, is a lot of hard work regardless of the plethora of learning materials available.
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
You know you're getting old when you think "20 years ago? I wasn't learning languages then...Oh wait, I was 14. Yes, I was learning languages then."
To add to the "No" camp, it was especially limited in rural/suburban areas of the U.S: what you saw in Barnes and Noble was what was available. Oh, and Hastings (I miss those stores). Audio resources were very scarce, and I remember buying a book to learn French and puzzling over the pronunciation explanations (I learned years later how hard it is). That was before the big anime/manga boom in the U.S. as well, so if you wanted to learn something other than FIGS, good luck. Even with FIGS, you might not know how to say anything.
20 years ago the Internet was still dial-up in my region, so it might take 10-15 minutes to load an image-heavy page--I'm not exaggerating. Message boards were notorious. Normal pages took 1-2 minutes to load. Any videos you would have to pause and come back in an hour for the buffering to finish. Large files would take hours to download from the Net--maybe overnight. Even if I knew about FSI courses, I would have to be very dedicated to download the materials (if they were available online then)---Oh, and hope family members didn't need to make a phone call, because you couldn't have the Internet running and have a phone call at the same time. Some families I knew had a system where if anyone calls the house, the Internet would automatically disconnect to take the call. My family had the other system: if you call the house, better leave a message, and we'll call back when we finally disconnect from the Net.
I knew at the time that my high school Spanish classes were good--as time passes, I'm realizing they were extraordinary. For starters, they had 4 levels--if you started as a freshman, you had a different curriculum as a senior. I started late, so I took three levels. The classes consisted of homework assignments with the regular grammar practice, but also lots of free-writing, speaking production assignments, mixed group activities and exposure to Spanish films and music. By my third year I could parse through Spanish-language articles.
In contrast, there were only 2 levels for French--and the 2nd level shared the space with the 1st, and often consisted of written assignments, by themselves in the hall. I heard there was a German class, but I don't know how often it was held.
...Which brings us to today. Yes, everything--literally, everything--is available to us today. I'm using a dating app to connect to people outside of my geographic area. I'm planning on getting back on track with iTalki tutoring over Zoom or Google Meets. I'm currently watching an anime on Amazon Prime. I'm listening to a Spotify music list that Lindie Botes curated. I have Language Reactor installed, so I can get subtitles for Japanese and Norwegian shows on Netflix. I'm writing on a message board, which will post my reply within seconds, and not in minutes.
I think what we need to consider today is how to balance our life, in a world full of distractions. For example, over a year ago I deleted my social media accounts--I don't need the drama of Facebook, or to constantly compare myself to successful Instanistas. I might get a Twitter account again, because that would be a good source of Japanese content, but I haven't gotten there yet. This forum is my main source of Internet networking, and I'm closer to achieving a balance that I like.
To add to the "No" camp, it was especially limited in rural/suburban areas of the U.S: what you saw in Barnes and Noble was what was available. Oh, and Hastings (I miss those stores). Audio resources were very scarce, and I remember buying a book to learn French and puzzling over the pronunciation explanations (I learned years later how hard it is). That was before the big anime/manga boom in the U.S. as well, so if you wanted to learn something other than FIGS, good luck. Even with FIGS, you might not know how to say anything.
20 years ago the Internet was still dial-up in my region, so it might take 10-15 minutes to load an image-heavy page--I'm not exaggerating. Message boards were notorious. Normal pages took 1-2 minutes to load. Any videos you would have to pause and come back in an hour for the buffering to finish. Large files would take hours to download from the Net--maybe overnight. Even if I knew about FSI courses, I would have to be very dedicated to download the materials (if they were available online then)---Oh, and hope family members didn't need to make a phone call, because you couldn't have the Internet running and have a phone call at the same time. Some families I knew had a system where if anyone calls the house, the Internet would automatically disconnect to take the call. My family had the other system: if you call the house, better leave a message, and we'll call back when we finally disconnect from the Net.
I knew at the time that my high school Spanish classes were good--as time passes, I'm realizing they were extraordinary. For starters, they had 4 levels--if you started as a freshman, you had a different curriculum as a senior. I started late, so I took three levels. The classes consisted of homework assignments with the regular grammar practice, but also lots of free-writing, speaking production assignments, mixed group activities and exposure to Spanish films and music. By my third year I could parse through Spanish-language articles.
In contrast, there were only 2 levels for French--and the 2nd level shared the space with the 1st, and often consisted of written assignments, by themselves in the hall. I heard there was a German class, but I don't know how often it was held.
...Which brings us to today. Yes, everything--literally, everything--is available to us today. I'm using a dating app to connect to people outside of my geographic area. I'm planning on getting back on track with iTalki tutoring over Zoom or Google Meets. I'm currently watching an anime on Amazon Prime. I'm listening to a Spotify music list that Lindie Botes curated. I have Language Reactor installed, so I can get subtitles for Japanese and Norwegian shows on Netflix. I'm writing on a message board, which will post my reply within seconds, and not in minutes.
I think what we need to consider today is how to balance our life, in a world full of distractions. For example, over a year ago I deleted my social media accounts--I don't need the drama of Facebook, or to constantly compare myself to successful Instanistas. I might get a Twitter account again, because that would be a good source of Japanese content, but I haven't gotten there yet. This forum is my main source of Internet networking, and I'm closer to achieving a balance that I like.
Last edited by Xenops on Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
^ good post there above me. However I'm still unconvinced that it's such an unparalleled 'golden era'. No-one is going to deny that there is almost unlimited access to resources that were unimaginable pre-internet. This is perhaps the very best thing about the internet era for language learners. I'm not convinced that it has turned out correspondingly huge numbers of successful language learners.
I think I misunderstood the original question in that it was asking if language learning is easier for everyone now, rather than mainly autodidact types. I tend to think the internet has just extended the reach of those people who were always more keen and persistent. Yet isn't it also the case that the internet era has also massively increased the number who start then crash? The same people who bought books and courses and gave up at chapter two? If we're only talking about people learning languages in a self-directed way, then I'd say the number of frustrated people has just been amplified. Why haven't they benefited?
The current polyglot heroes: Kaufmann, Simcott, Alexander Arguelles etc; all these are products of pre-internet languages learning. Alexander Arguelles may be an early internet languages guy, but look at what he was doing, displaying the huge numbers of old-school courses he said he used to learn languages! It doesn't seem to me that he was footling about on Kwizik or bingeing on dramas.
So yes, it's given much, but mainly to the likes of those who pursued a full Linguaphone course to the very end. Without doubt lots of people in the middle have likely gone further than they would have in the past with just a book, but the real model learning anything in the past wasn't just 'a book'. Probably at the start, but then the serious would be looking for local groups, then lessons, or pursuing it as an education where lots of opportunities then present themselves.
More access and to more people? Yes. More successes? Probably and likely. Easier? No. If it's 'easier' how did Iversen cope before the internet? How did I learn to read passable Russian using a handful of books? Why is this forum still populated with posts about difficulties?
I think I misunderstood the original question in that it was asking if language learning is easier for everyone now, rather than mainly autodidact types. I tend to think the internet has just extended the reach of those people who were always more keen and persistent. Yet isn't it also the case that the internet era has also massively increased the number who start then crash? The same people who bought books and courses and gave up at chapter two? If we're only talking about people learning languages in a self-directed way, then I'd say the number of frustrated people has just been amplified. Why haven't they benefited?
The current polyglot heroes: Kaufmann, Simcott, Alexander Arguelles etc; all these are products of pre-internet languages learning. Alexander Arguelles may be an early internet languages guy, but look at what he was doing, displaying the huge numbers of old-school courses he said he used to learn languages! It doesn't seem to me that he was footling about on Kwizik or bingeing on dramas.
So yes, it's given much, but mainly to the likes of those who pursued a full Linguaphone course to the very end. Without doubt lots of people in the middle have likely gone further than they would have in the past with just a book, but the real model learning anything in the past wasn't just 'a book'. Probably at the start, but then the serious would be looking for local groups, then lessons, or pursuing it as an education where lots of opportunities then present themselves.
More access and to more people? Yes. More successes? Probably and likely. Easier? No. If it's 'easier' how did Iversen cope before the internet? How did I learn to read passable Russian using a handful of books? Why is this forum still populated with posts about difficulties?
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
Le Baron wrote:I think I misunderstood the original question in that it was asking if language learning is easier for everyone now, rather than mainly autodidact types.
The original question was about everyone, however, it's pretty natural that most people commented on their own experience. The difference between the amount and the accessibility of resources is really huge, so it's understandable that the majority sees our present as a golden age. This can't be a scientific research, just a discussion, so the question is of course simplified. Relatively few people commented for example on their achievements of the two eras contrasted to each other. I think we can conclude that the overwhelming majority thinks that language learning is easier now, but we can't say that everyone is significantly more successful or efficient (as it wasn't part of the question.)
People here (I guess) like learning languages, and they are interested in resources, they like trying out new materials. It's totally understandable that the present is a golden age for a hobby learner. On the other hand, for the vast majority of people learning languages is just a task they have to fulfill, because of a degree or a job, or because they want to work in another country. They want to spend as little time and effort on it as possible. I'm not convinced that language learning became easier for this group, as the 'magic bullet' still doesn't exist, and the need to pick out the good resources (resources that suit their needs, interests and learning style) is still a huge obstacle. To this group you can't say that they need to watch Netflix with applications, and use Anki and italki and Assimil and youtube and oh, wait, there are 10 other things you need to put in your routine.
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
Another point that's just come to mind and don't think has been mentioned in this thread (unless I've missed it, in which case sorry!), although I remember previous discussions about it, is that having a true immersion experience in a language other than English was likely much easier a few decades ago than it is now. I think it was Solfrid Cristina from the old HTLAL forum who wrote about her experiences of spending time in Andalucía as a child where she learnt Spanish to a high level because there was no other option if she wanted to communicate, and how doing such a thing in the modern era would be pretty difficult between widespread English knowledge and technology always keeping you connected to the rest of the world and your family and friends. You'd have to go to a pretty remote area and make a big effort to disconnect in order to avoid English, although I can believe that it's easier for a language like Mandarin than for my mainstream FIGS choices...
Of course we all know here that immersion is not magical and isn't necessary or sufficient to learn a language to a good level, even if it can sure help to speed it up. The flip side is that "All Japanese All The Time" style at-home semi-immersion is now possible thanks to the same technology, and is accessible to many to whom a real immersion experience wouldn't be.
Of course we all know here that immersion is not magical and isn't necessary or sufficient to learn a language to a good level, even if it can sure help to speed it up. The flip side is that "All Japanese All The Time" style at-home semi-immersion is now possible thanks to the same technology, and is accessible to many to whom a real immersion experience wouldn't be.
Last edited by garyb on Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- luke
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Re: Was language learning easier 20-30 years ago?
BeaP wrote:It's totally understandable that the present is a golden age for a hobby learner. On the other hand, for the vast majority of people learning languages is just a task they have to fulfill, because of a degree or a job, or because they want to work in another country. They want to spend as little time and effort on it as possible. I'm not convinced that language learning became easier for this group, as the 'magic bullet' still doesn't exist, and the need to pick out the good resources (resources that suit their needs, interests and learning style) is still a huge obstacle.
I think you're right, and it reminds me of this paper:
https://howlearnspanish.com/wp-content/ ... 999_07.pdf
Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching wrote:Why did learners learn almost as successfully in the early days of the long histories of FSI, the Defense Language Institute, ..., and other comparable institutions, as they do today, despite the clear increases in the field’s understanding of teaching and learning? Do the curriculum and teaching techniques, in fact, not really matter?
Now you've got me thinking about re-reading that paper and filling out some details on what they did useful.
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