Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

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Le Baron
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Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby Le Baron » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:36 pm

I went to the language cafe at the weekend, which was held at a neighbourhood centre this time. As can be expected there are a quite a few people there who are still learning Dutch, so this makes up the bulk of discussion, though it also means there were two French speakers, an Italian, two Spanish speakers a Polish guy and a guy from Sierra Leone.

In connection with the title there was a discussion started by someone who said that some TV programmes were almost impossible to follow. This particular programme turned out to be a police drama of the modern kind with all the forensic stuff. The person who started it said that she had tried to watch this programme (or 'show' as people call them now) several times, but often failed because she got totally lost and couldn't understand the the dialogue. Some agreed. Some others said they had less trouble with it. The two Dutch natives laughed.

It's something I've always had on my mind. Within language learning we use a lot of these TV programmes and films for listening, but I've long considered they have limits and also limited value in the short-term. The first thing to note is that although it is presented as 'natural speech' it really isn't that at all, it's strictly scripted. This scripting means that most of the speakers are never at a loss for words and that their dialogue is usually finely-wrought, with good vocabulary and timing and balance. But then there is also the dialogue (also tightly-scripted) which is created to portray 'ordinary people' of the street. This dialogue very often serves-up a strong representation of vernacular speech. Sometimes it is very exaggerated to give you the message that this person is 'street' and it employs a very pronounced accent and slang/dialect content.

With this in mind it means, in my opinion at least, that an L2 learner should always treat it as a limited source. Most of all that not understanding it all is not a sign of not being able to understand the functional L2 language in the real world. When I say 'functional' I don't just mean getting-by, but normal usage. TV drama is not normal usage, even though it is crafted to mimic normal usage. It is a cultural art product (whether considered 'low' or 'high' art). This applies even more to films. Even though there is this theory that you are pulled along by 'stories' (an Olly Richards favourite), you still need to understand what people are basically saying first or this story might as well be in ancient Sumerian.
This is why I have often avoided fictional drama (and there is an argument extending to written fiction) as a main or sole source of listening.
At least in the early stages. Obviously not total avoidance, but I think there is much more value in unscripted speech where people have to think as they talk, which eliminates much of that impossible speed and fluency of scripted speech.

Discuss. :)
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby SCMT » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:57 pm

For me, watching TV was one of the best exercises I have done to improve my listening, although it was done in a structured, intentional manner. At the suggestion of one of my italki tutors, we chose a show, and I watched it, once with target language subtitles, and then again without. At times, I watched with subtitles twice, once stopping every time I couldn't follow, and another time letting it play uninterrupted. I would then discuss the episode with my tutor, with conversation ranging from plot discussions language usage.

The show lasted about 35 episodes of 30 minutes, so I guess I had somewhere around 45 hours of focused listening practice and follow up with it, and it is some of the most productive work I have done.
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby Le Baron » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:03 pm

Following with expert, in-depth guidance is a completely different ball game though. It also doesn't really demonstrate that you couldn't have learned the same or more from watching and discussing factual programming.

The part of drama I think is good is the dialogue, even if it is not always natural. It may be that as the real world has become drenched in media products people now behave more like TV drama as life imitates art.
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby BeaP » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:05 pm

There is no perfect resource. Everything has disadvantages, especially when used as a sole resource. For me TV series have these huge benefits:
1. Subtitles, translation readily available
2. Huge amount available
3. Interesting or even addictive content, that you can watch for hours
4. No need to concentrate
When my daughters were very small, TV series were the easiest way for me to learn a language. Watching them didn't require silence, flow, deep work. I could stop the film anytime and go back to it later. After a while I felt that I don't develop enough, left the comfort zone, and started to watch talk shows and random youtube channels. But it was a long journeys, series had a lot to offer.
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby SCMT » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:18 pm

Le Baron wrote:Following with expert, in-depth guidance is a completely different ball game though. It also doesn't really demonstrate that you couldn't have learned the same or more from watching and discussing factual programming.

The part of drama I think is good is the dialogue, even if it is not always natural. It may be that as the real world has become drenched in media products people now behave more like TV drama as life imitates art.


You asked for a discussion on the value of TV as a resource. It was very useful to me. I don't think it should be discounted because of the manner in which I used it.
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby 白田龍 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:44 pm

If you work only with TV drama until they are completely unchallenging your listening comprehension will have become very good indeed. Of course you need variety, but you can stick to what is easily available for a long while, and diversify later.


Most language we have to learn is not natural language. The language of texts, books, science, and cultural products uses a much wider vocabulary than the language of natural conversation.
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby luke » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:26 pm

SCMT wrote:
Le Baron wrote:Following with expert, in-depth guidance is a completely different ball game though.

It was very useful to me. I don't think it should be discounted because of the manner in which I used it.

That's a good point. We may "abuse" TV or books or anything, by using them as a learning tool. This "abuse" doesn't mean they're not good tools for some people for some things.

Following the thread's theme, I've thought about studying a series. It's a different approach than say, watching 500-1000 hours of series for months on end, but it has it's upsides. Smaller time investment and improvement should be apparent (at least to you). (let's say that watching series is not your normal "go to" for fun). I.E., learn colloquial language by focusing on a smaller body of it.

Now if you love series or dramas or movies and it would be normal to watch 2-4 hours a day for 6-12 months, go for it.

But if multiple hours a day for months on end sounds unpleasant, why not just a focused study?

Not suggestion that SCMT's approach wasn't absolutely perfect. Just trying to build on that experience.

白田龍 wrote:If you work only with TV drama until they are completely unchallenging your listening comprehension will have become very good indeed. Of course you need variety, but you can stick to what is easily available for a long while, and diversify later.

I agree. I've been developing this idea to not be afraid to stick with what you like until "completely unchallenging". There are surely better ways, but there's a lot to be said for doing something you like.

Basically, the idea is get good at doing things you enjoy. The above average ability you develop in that domain may have some carryover in domains you don't enjoy so much. (Not saying that a teacher dictating your assignments might not be more effective, just that autodidacts don't have to dance to anyone else's tune).
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby Le Baron » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:37 pm

SCMT wrote:
Le Baron wrote:Following with expert, in-depth guidance is a completely different ball game though. It also doesn't really demonstrate that you couldn't have learned the same or more from watching and discussing factual programming.

The part of drama I think is good is the dialogue, even if it is not always natural. It may be that as the real world has become drenched in media products people now behave more like TV drama as life imitates art.


You asked for a discussion on the value of TV as a resource. It was very useful to me. I don't think it should be discounted because of the manner in which I used it.

I'm not discounting it. You got the best version of it.
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby Le Baron » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:45 pm

I already knew this would be a fairly unpopular topic. Since so many learners swear by endless TV series and long novels. Whilst I also read books (though fewer very long novels) and watch some TV, I'm out of step with this approach.

Over the decades I've never actually met a person in 'real life' who learned a functioning language by those means. Certainly not one who is then walking about speaking it. Consequently I have very high scepticism.
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Re: Limits (and value) of TV drama for listening.

Postby Dragon27 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:50 pm

just a funny anecdote
Xmmm wrote:I once met a Korean who spoke perfect Californian English. I mean, perfect. But he'd never been to any English speaking country. I told him I would have sworn he was a native Californian. How did he do it? His answer: "TV, man."

link
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