French books are rubbish?

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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Ogrim » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:27 pm

Some French books are certainly rubbish, many are tedious and boring, but I think you can say that about literature from any big culture. I have read a lot of rubbish books both in Spanish and English, but I would not judge their entire literature on those books.

As others have said, it also comes down to personal taste. Personally I don't have much time for classical authors like Stendahl and Flaubert, but I recognise their historical importance and influence in French culture and society. I also don't have time for modern writers like Michel Houllebecq, whom I find shallow and navel gazing. That is my personal view, I know hundred of thousands of people love Houllebecq and he's got several literature prizes to his name. I find Sartre quite good, and Camus is ok, but overall I actually prefer French non-fiction: modern-day philosopher Michel Onfray has written some interesting books although I don't agree with a lot of what he says. I've also enjoyed the works of Henri Bergson and Alain Finkielkraut. I guess this is not what the OP is looking for, but I mention them as examples of French books being more than novels in the tradition of Zola.

My favourite French writer isn't French, he's Lebanese - Amin Maalouf - but all his literary work is in French. His historical novels, like Léo l'Africain, Samarcande and Le périple de Baldassare are great works of literature and they are entertaining too. In addition he has written a few thought-provoking essays, like Les Croisades vues par les Arabes, Les identités meurtrières" and Le naufrage des civilisations.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Carmody » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:19 pm

Michel Houllebecq
Yes, I totally agree with your statements!
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:12 pm

I rather want to somewhat defend French novels for at least generally sticking to adult themes. I've found that quite a lot of modern so-called adult literature - at least the very popular stuff in English, but also some other languages that might also get translated - has now become obsessed with cartoonish and grandiose visions of the world. And/or hyperactive excitement for people who perhaps get easily mentally bored or complain of plots being 'about ordinary depressing things'.

If you look back at an author such as H.G Wells (who today is remembered for his more fantastical books) his novels always incorporated social-political-scientific phenomena of the time, which he sometimes addressed through science fiction. Though not always and you can see why some of his interesting books have fallen by the wayside: people talk about things like ordinary love and deceit and political commitment and 'education theory' (one of his interests). He would now be thought too 'didactic' if he was writing today. Where you have to write some 700-page thing with 'spiritual' themes and dream-like prose involving complicated personal histories that root the character in far-away things like the holocaust or the Russian Revolution or Spanish-American War or The Crusades or some partial make-believe world. Whatever other ready-made backdrop lends ready-made grandeur to these things which have a blurb on the back cover from people saying how it took them on a 'journey' through three continents and all that waffle.

I'm not averse to entertainment, which is why I like Graham Greene's less serious novels (which he actually called 'entertainments') such as Our Man in Havana, but it's not a patch on The End of the Affair or The Heart of the Matter. I see that school literary texts tend to always include Orwell's 1984, but not e.g. Walter Greenwood's classic Love on the Dole. Too depressing, too real, not exciting enough. A novelist like Julian Barnes seems to me to write in a 'French' way, which might explain his popularity there. No-one could say he was boring or 'navel-gazing'; he's also received prizes in England. And maybe it's not a 'French' thing at all, because I've read either original or translated literature from a few countries and the 'realism' literature which is good is just less popular. It has sort of gone out of fashion and been replaced with either a form of pseudo-realism which is looked at through some ironic, postmodern lens (e.g. world seen through autistic boy's eyes) or melodramatic superficial stuff about middle-class single parenthood (the horror!). Those last being the ones winning all the literary prizes and making fans of Tolkien sad.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby rdearman » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:29 am

Many people already have enough depressing realisms in their lives and don't need to read about it as well. HG Wells would probably be considered a soft sci-fi writer today because as you say he used sci-fi as a vehicle for social commentary. A more modern writer like this is Robert A Heinlien. I know you are saying more modern literary works are moving away from this tradition, I wouldn't know since I stopped reading non-genre fiction because it was depressing.

I agree with what I think you are saying that Modern English literature is also rubbish. But I am not an outlier here. Stephen King sells more novels that all the Booker prize winners combined.

Reading your post one statement leaps out to me as the difference between us. You said; "I'm not averse to entertainment". But I demand it. Which is why I label actionless character examination novels as useless drivel. I want a book to entertain me, if I just want to hear about depressing or horrible things happening to people I can just turn on the news or read a newspaper.

Genre fiction outsells literary fiction by a long shot. Honestly I don't have anything against French literature any more than I do with English literature. Neither one is my thing.

I should stress that as the OP I opened the thread at the request of Carmody because we have very different views of what makes for a good book. Also the French books I have are not selected for quality they are just a random selection of books people gave me they didn't want anymore. There may be a great book out there written in French I just haven't seen it yet.

One other thing I should point out is that I personally consider a literature prize mark on a novel to be a warning label not a recommendation.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby tungemål » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:39 am

rdearman wrote:Many people already have enough depressing realisms in their lives and don't need to read about it as well.

I agree - that's why I don't understand why crime fiction is so popular on TV and in books - the stories are mostly depressing.

This thread doesn't make me want to learn French. What happened to the "land of culture"? Was all said and done during la Belle Époque? I see that you don't want to read 19th century literature anyway. I've never read French literature - unless you count Asterix and other comics.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby rdearman » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:35 am

tungemål wrote:
rdearman wrote:Many people already have enough depressing realisms in their lives and don't need to read about it as well.

I agree - that's why I don't understand why crime fiction is so popular on TV and in books - the stories are mostly depressing.

This thread doesn't make me want to learn French. What happened to the "land of culture"? Was all said and done during la Belle Époque? I see that you don't want to read 19th century literature anyway. I've never read French literature - unless you count Asterix and other comics.

I think the French do some amazing BD (comics) and highly recommend them. After I finish this bunch of books I'm reading I will try some new modern French books. Probably sci-fi or fantasy. I am not a big horror or crime fan, although I do like Stephen King.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Iversen » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:20 am

I studied French (and comparative literature, haha) long ago, so I have read tons of slightly old French literature in my life. And actually I can see a reason for reading French literature if you like to immerse yourself in the private lives of other people. Reading a novel by someone like Balzac (there is at least a shelf meter to choose from!) is like putting a webcam into the dwellings of an assorted range of his contemporaries and spending all your time following their activities. Though with some other authors the scene might not be Paris in the 19. century, but medieval France or exotic destinations, but the aim is still to let you snoop into the lives and thoughts of some irrelevant and mostly nasty (or stupid) persons. And as some contributors to this thread already have mentioned, there are ugly things enough in the world - you don't need to have authors add to the misery.

So given that I hardly ever read fiction these days it may be a small surprise that I have to defend French literature - albeit not the novels (except maybe those that take you to ancient or foreign destinations, like some works of Hugo and most of Jules Verne). I actually admire some of the poetry in French, like the short and time-efficient productions of people like Baudelaire and Verlaine. As for Rimbaud (who burned out as a young man and ended up as a slave trader in Africa) his Bateau Ivre ('drunk boat') may be long for a poem, but not so long that it can't be read in one stretch. I would also like to mention Le Cimétière Marin by Paul Valéry, not least because I once saw a Norwegian translation which almost surpassed the original in sheer brillancy. As for Saint-John Perse .. well, I had problems reading his works, but still found them interesting. And while we're in the 19. century: Gerard de Nerval and Aloysius (Louis) Bertrand, both mentally ill and therefore not very productive, but worth reading if you dig well-made poetry - although in the case of Bertrand the relevant part of his production is the prose poems in Gaspard de la Nuit - which I actually translated and published in part during my study time. But warning: some of the last poems in the book are drippingly sentimental and should be avoided. Further back in time the poets from the Pleïade (Ronsard, du Bellay) and people like the madman Rabelais and the rogue Villon.

The good thing about poems is that they (mostly) are cookie sized short, but of course you need to be fairly skilled in French to read them. Not that the novels are exempt from causing you problems - an author like Balzac knows the words for ALL the weird instruments and objects in general from just about any sphere in the French society of his time - and frankly I don't need to know the names of all those things, and I'm not interested in his characters. So if I really had to read some literature then a short peek back into French poetry from the days where the authors still cared about form might be acceptable - but also science fiction. Actually science fiction and (to some extent) fantasy were the last genres that still could interest me if I was truly bored, but since Verne I have just not seen much of it from France. And comics like Astérix are of course OK - even (and maybe especially) the Danish translations ...

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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:42 pm

rdearman wrote:Reading your post one statement leaps out to me as the difference between us. You said; "I'm not averse to entertainment". But I demand it. Which is why I label actionless character examination novels as useless drivel. I want a book to entertain me, if I just want to hear about depressing or horrible things happening to people I can just turn on the news or read a newspaper.

I'm sure everyone wants entertainment really, though the definition of it will differ per person. In a good novel it's not so much that 'ordinary' things are just described like a news bulletin. They are the recognisable backdrop for examination of things. Which is why novels tend to be a good vehicle for presenting ideas in real situations the reader can connect with. This need not be boring.
rdearman wrote:Genre fiction outsells literary fiction by a long shot. Honestly I don't have anything against French literature any more than I do with English literature. Neither one is my thing.

This has always been the case and certainly some genre fiction is good, but a lot of it is superficial and quite badly-written from a literary perspective. The missus was into those Matthew Reilly books in the early 2000s. I read one and they are of the later Frederick Forsyth school where high-detail outstrips either plot or character. This will suit some people, she worked at ESA at the time and is a detail-oriented person (I'll just add, so am I). I could easily say if I want mere lists and detail strung together and eliminate the bit of 'he said, she said' I can just read a user or service manual.
rdearman wrote:One other thing I should point out is that I personally consider a literature prize mark on a novel to be a warning label not a recommendation.

Yes, this can be the case. I said further up I tend not to read a lot of these either, though I have read some. My interference in this thread was to say that even though there will be some writers in French who will write genre fiction, most French fiction is not of that bent and leans much more towards the 'domestic situation examination' or some sort of self-examination. And that if a person is learning French and reading this is going to be how it is for a lot of books. It's possible to find French thrillers e.g. those of Jean-Christophe Grangé, Sébastien Japrisot, Jacques Expert (whom I think I already mentioned). I read Sophie Hénaff's Poulets Grillés, but since it's lightly laced with feminism it might not be to some people's tastes. I don't think the French do the likes of 'Harlan Coben' or Clive Cussler. Maybe a French person here knows better and if so I'll give way to a more informed opinion.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Carmody » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:23 pm

rdearman
There may be a great book out there written in French I just haven't seen it yet.
Could you share with us what you consider to be a great book in any language?
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby tarvos » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:33 pm

Maybe you shouldn't read depressing books if you don't want to. I would just stick to reading non-fiction then. There's nothing wrong with that. We don't all have to be cUlTuReD and ReFiNeD.

Honestly, these days I just read what I feel like reading. And lately, that hasn't been much, because I am busy or tired or both.
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