French books are rubbish?

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Le Baron
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:38 pm

I broadly agree with the above (from s_allard, not the drum-banging stuff following it), though I wouldn't want to say either way whether rdearman has/doesn't have enough French reading proficiency (since the point of reading is about developing it in the first place!). Plus he hammered through the books regardless.

Taking into account personal reading tastes (for all languages) there's probably always going to be certain responses to national literatures. Aside from the smaller output of genre fiction in French I think it's fair to say generally popular French fiction has a specific character which reflects some part of the public culture and which could be described as: somewhat realistic, concerned with personal and social psychology and the messes of social relations/relationships....blah blah. Though there are also books with political intrigues, it's the way this is presented in French fiction that might not chime with someone coming from another literary tradition.

Isn't it worth considering the 'nature' of any national literature before assuming it can just be read, simply because we can read (bloody homonyms!)? There is a character to national literatures that makes them only superficially the same as any other. This goes even for those literary traditions seemingly close to one another - British English/American English, which are not identical in tone, style, word choices... Or seemingly close because of belonging to a group e.g. Spanish/Italian. Denying this sort of denies a national self-perception between countries, which does exist and it expressed in literature.

I can see that some people would be turned off by the tone and character of French literature, and that as such this would be an obstacle for reading. But also an obstacle to understanding how the language intertwines with the people who use it and how they think and see themselves.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Deinonysus » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:41 pm

How about Jules Verne? He was a 19th century writer so of course his books aren't paced like modern thrillers but from what I have read so far, he has colorful characters and snappy dialog, and of course he is widely considered to be the father of science fiction.

There are also bandes dessinées. The most famous are Tintin and Astérix which are aimed at kids, but there is also Valérian et Laureline which was a huge influence on Star Wars and The Fifth Element (and Luc Besson, the director of The Fifth Element, eventually adapted the series directly as Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets). There is also Métal hurlant (known in translation in the US as Heavy Metal), a series of sci-fi and horror comics, definitely not for kids! There have been a couple of English-language animated movies based on these stories.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:51 pm

Cavesa wrote:No breakdown in comprehension (and you perhaps shouldn't be so haughty and arrogant towards someone, who has most probably achieved much more than you have in this area. ;-) If you were less pretentious, you could actually learn something from me instead). Just mentioning that the typical snobs like you (and I've met a lot of them) are definitely a factor in the lower popularity of French among general learners these days. Your attitude is not just snobbish, but it is also not original at all. You're acting like a very stereotypical French enthusiast, that is the base for many jokes and for people choosing a language with a more varied "marketing" instead.

I'm pretty much certain that anyone else reading any post I've added to this thread would not reach those conclusions; largely because I've neither explicitly nor implicitly said anything resembling them. I am actually suggesting people should read French, not that they should not read it. That there are things to expect which might be an obstacle and perhaps ways around it by looking for other types of books.
The rest of your post is inexplicable to me. I can't make out what the complaint is, aside for the same old conveyor belt of: snobs, privilege, and accusations of being 'haughty', yet itself delivered in a haughty way. I compliment you on your great achievements. If only we were all so blessed and lucky.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:58 pm

Deinonysus wrote:There are also bandes dessinées. The most famous are Tintin and Astérix which are aimed at kids, but there is also Valérian et Laureline which was a huge influence on Star Wars and The Fifth Element (and Luc Besson, the director of The Fifth Element, eventually adapted the series directly as Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets). There is also Métal hurlant (known in translation in the US as Heavy Metal), a series of sci-fi and horror comics, definitely not for kids! There have been a couple of English-language animated movies based on these stories.

Yes, the strips are perhaps much more sophisticated than a lot of people might think. So many strips/BD are aimed directly at adult readers and some easily on a scale between young adult to adult. I still read Blake & Mortimer and Victor Sackville and Dick Hérisson etc. I used strips extensively when learning Dutch (Franka, Claire, Kiekeboe, Avonturen van Nero). They're neither too easy nor too hard. I've learned loads of vocabulary from strips.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby rdearman » Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:47 pm

In order to reduce further speculation about my level of French, I've been learning and reading in French for 17 years. (I'll let you do the maths). I've probably read well over 200 books. The last ODAS test I took pegged me at 3 on the ILR scale, which is C1 in CEFR.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Carmody » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:05 pm

s_allard

Would you please suggest some of your favorite Blaise Cendrars books?

Thank you.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:12 pm

rdearman wrote:In order to reduce further speculation about my level of French, I've been learning and reading in French for 17 years. (I'll let you do the maths). I've probably read well over 200 books. The last ODAS test I took pegged me at 3 on the ILR scale, which is C1 in CEFR.

I already had an idea you'd been at it for a long time, because I remember you saying you'd had a language exchange for over a decade (am I right?). In any case to me it probably doesn't really matter if the reader is a beginning learner or really proficient, it's just the material that might get in the way. Or that it just doesn't suit reading tastes. Which seems to be the case here. It's neither right nor wrong or anything like that.

I also like an American saying 'maths'. well done sir. ;)
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby s_allard » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:29 pm

Right now, I am reading the 470-page action-packed thriller, Whiteout, by Ken Follett. I don’t know if it qualifies as great literature but I’m enjoying it. I wonder what level of proficiency would a student of English need to appreciate this book. A good question. I don’t have the answer.

First of all, can we say that a book is at B1 or B2 or C1 or C2 level ? Is there such a thing as C1 vocabulary or grammar? What I do see is a lot of formulaic and idiomatic English that a native speaker would recognize immediately. This is not 19th century English by Charles Dickens.

Secondly, can a B1 or B2 student read this novel ? Sure, but what will they understand and how much will they enjoy it ? I just don’t know. Will a C2 student enjoy this book more ? Most likely, assuming of course that they like this genre of fiction.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby s_allard » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:38 pm

Carmody wrote:s_allard

Would you please suggest some of your favorite Blaise Cendrars books?

Thank you.


I love everything he has written. Some more than others of course. My favourites, in this order, are:

1. L'homme foudroyé
2. Bourlinguer
3. Emmène-moi au bout du monde
4. L'or

I would also add a piece of non-fiction entitled:
La banlieue de Paris

Enjoy
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Carmody » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:08 pm

Thanks so much for the info.
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