French books are rubbish?

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cito
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby cito » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:23 pm

Cavesa wrote:
lusan wrote:
cito wrote:
Cavesa wrote:And for the record: I didn't like l'Étranger. It may be a canon book, it may be objectively good, if some say so, but I hated it.


That's so funny! I really loved it in English, so I decided to read it in French. I'm not close to being done but I'm enjoying it so far by reading it through LingQ. At least you read it before judging it... you're much better than most haha... but hey, to each their own.


L'Etranger funny? Maybe I missed something but a book about the senseless of existence didn't appear so to me. I will never forget la nausea I felt when the book described the mother's funeral... Of course, that was the point of the book, right? But funny?!


I think cito didn't mean the book was "funny", but rather my dislike for it was "funny". Some people have a hard time imagining others have different tastes, in spite of mentioning it at the end of the comment. Cito mistook a simple difference in opinion for some kind of a flaw or failure, it seemed.



Um, no? I don't think it's a failure at all, simply most people I talk to about L'Etranger really love it! I just thought it was funny because usually that opinion isn't voiced in front of the Giant of "The Literary Canon." I think it's good and healthy to disagree about all sorts of things! Even if someone dislikes my favorite book (which is probably The Picture of Dorian Gray) I wouldn't hold it against them, we just differ in opinion.

I also really respect that you read the book and then formulated an opinion on it. I know lots of people who decide how they feel about literature or art before they actually encounter it. But hey I mean you can't always portray tone over text so sorry if you felt like I was insulting you, Cavesa.

And as far as what I said about the book- I wasn't trying to say that I thought the book was funny- really it's almost anything but. I find the book to be disturbing and ironic and such an interesting view of a pseudo-psychopath. I enjoyed the experience of reading it, so it was even part of the reason I started learning French in the first place.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby cito » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:31 pm

Cavesa wrote:Not sure why it's funny. People simply have various literary tastes, that's all. Judging books (especially in the sense like/dislike) is nothing wrong, don't judge judging :-) I'm not somewhat bad, just "better than most", we simply disagree on a book.


That's exactly what I meant haha. I thought it was funny we disagreed because it's a somewhat uncommon opinion. I'd never hold it against anybody.

"Funny" is a funny word in itself. When I use it with my family or my friends we often use it not to be demeaning or looking down upon people, but really just to call something interesting, uncommon, or intriguing. I guess I should have said I find it intriguing that you felt that way about Camus, because again, a lot of people I know and talk to about him ADORE his writing. No judgment though. Sorry if the tone didn't communicate clearly.

Also by saying "better than most" I meant that quite literally. "Most" includes me! Like I said prior there are many people who cast judgment without actually reading a work, something I've honestly done (with Nietzche, who I ended up liking). So I was just trying to say I found it interesting/intriguing we differed in opinion, because I really loved L'Etranger! Didn't mean to sound insulting, my bad.

Hope you're doing well.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Carmody » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:33 pm

Congratulations to Rick for posting a stimulating thread on French Lit.

Back on Feb 14, 2019 I set up a thread to get people to discuss these same French book issues over in the thread entitled:
A French Book Reading Resource
https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10113

My sense is that Rick has done more in 1 day to get people talking than I have been able to do in almost three years. So please folks, if I am doing something wrong, please let me know.

If at any time people wish to join us over there, you are more than welcome. I would love to help out with suggestions but don’t want to be a bore on a topic I love.

Now as to the topic of this thread. Each person has their own tastes in reading as with the enjoyment of ice cream. My particular tastes are for French literature and history of the 20th century. I have not read French books in the genres of scifi, mystery, detective, or fantasy genres. I am not opposed to those genres; they just do not ring any bells for me.

One fiction author that I find unique to France and for whom America has no one comparable is Amélie Nothomb. I have read 5 of her books so far and think that her Stupeur Et Tremblements is remarkable.

If you want action fiction then J'irai cracher sur vos tombes by B. Vian would be worth a look.

If you want history and are interested in Vichy France then Le régime de Vichy and Le syndrome De Vichy, de 1944 a Nos Jours Henry Rousso are quite by good.

French literature is also like Napoleon who had a whole lot of good and bad to him.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby guyome » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:15 am

Cavesa wrote:Some good detective novels tips. Even though I'm not sure Simenon will satisfy rdearman, based on the presented tastes (...)
Yeah, maybe :) But I wrote it thinking it may also be useful to someone else if not to him personally.
And I found it hard to suggest anything to rdearman. First and foremost, I'm not a huge reader of contemporary literature and it seems he doesn't want old stuff. Second, I checked his log (quickly, I admit) to see what he may like but I came back with the opposite: a vague idea of what he dislikes. That still makes it hard to suggest anything relevant.

Also, the name of this thread suggests that this was done in jest, so I don't know if a serious answer is what he was looking for. And if someone can't find anything (s)he likes in one of the biggest publishing markets in the world, I'm not sure I can help there. I mean, seriously, there are more interesting books than I'll ever be able to read among the 11,000 books digitised by the Yiddish Book Center, how hard should it be to find something you like among the 70,000 books published each year in France?

I think the reason may be that (if I read rdearman's log correctly) he's reading books that were given to him, books he didn't chose himself.

Still, I'm looking at my shelves right now and here's a sample of authors and titles I enjoyed. Removing most of the old and "navel gazing" stuff doesn't leave much I'm afraid. Tried to include various genres, maybe that'll help:

Vassilis Alexakis (Greek, lived in France for a while)
Anouilh (plays)
Pierre Clostermann (diary of a Free French ww2 pilot in the RAF)
Guy Delisle (bédé)
E. P. Jacobs (bédé)
Maurice Leblanc (the Arsène Lupin series)
Marcel Pagnol (plays, memoirs, novels)
Alain Peyrefitte, Quand la Chine s'éveillera... and L'Empire immobile
Henri Pourrat (tales collected in Auvergne and rewritten, wonderful language)
Riad Sattouf, L'Arabe du futur (bédé)
Paul Veyne (Roman history)
Nicolas Wild, Kaboul Disco (bédé)
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby rdearman » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:46 am

guyome wrote: think the reason may be that (if I read rdearman's log correctly) he's reading books that were given to him, books he didn't chose himself

Yes, that is true. The books I'm reading now were all "gifted" to me by people. When I worked for a French company, I used to ask French people visiting the UK offices to bring me any old books they had lying around. This ended with me getting quite an eclectic, and incongruous collection of French books. The object here was simply to get books in French, the content was never really an interest since I only wanted them to practice reading in French and learn vocabulary.

Over the years I've read a few that interested me and gave away others which didn't. I ended with 22 books I thought I might read in future. Recently my wife has decreed that "all that crap needs to go" and I have been purging books left, right and centre. I've managed to remove 2 bookshelves, but still have 3 filled to the brim.

The reason I'm left with a lot of "old and navel-gazing" books is simply because when people bring someone books they have lying around, they are books from school, books they wouldn't read, or things they read long ago but don't want to keep. So, a lot of books people didn't really want.

Some clarifications, I did recently read an autobiography of a guy who grew up in Nazi occupied France. That was pretty good, modern and not a lot of navel-gazing. I have also read (not recently) some books by Maigret, which were OK, but nothing I would be scouring the Internet to find more of.

Carmody wrote:My sense is that Rick has done more in 1 day to get people talking than I have been able to do in almost three years.

Just my click-bait title. :)
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Cavesa » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:08 am

cito wrote:Um, no? I don't think it's a failure at all, simply most people I talk to about L'Etranger really love it! I just thought it was funny because usually that opinion isn't voiced in front of the Giant of "The Literary Canon." I think it's good and healthy to disagree about all sorts of things! Even if someone dislikes my favorite book (which is probably The Picture of Dorian Gray) I wouldn't hold it against them, we just differ in opinion.

I also really respect that you read the book and then formulated an opinion on it. I know lots of people who decide how they feel about literature or art before they actually encounter it. But hey I mean you can't always portray tone over text so sorry if you felt like I was insulting you, Cavesa.

And as far as what I said about the book- I wasn't trying to say that I thought the book was funny- really it's almost anything but. I find the book to be disturbing and ironic and such an interesting view of a pseudo-psychopath. I enjoyed the experience of reading it, so it was even part of the reason I started learning French in the first place.


Thanks for the clarification, we agree on how the book is usually received. You're right, it is sometimes not well received, to say "I don't like it at all" about a canonical book. Honestly, I think there are plenty of people, who didn't like it at all, but they simply never wanted to look stupid publicly. I don't doubt many people adore his writing, as you say, but I guess many don't and the line is not the same as between clever and stupid readers.

Don't get me wrong, I recognize that literature (and art in general) needs to be also about disgusting things, about the worst mud at the bottom of our souls and society, and that the form sometimes counts more than the content. However, I was really missing a sort of catharsis (yeah, wrong millenium, I know). I avoid such horribly depressive books in general, as I have enough of all this in the real life, I simply don't need to be taught by writers, what I see around so often. What many of the canonical books offer and should offer (at least in my opinion), is a new light shed on the issue, or a much more creative fantasy of a solution (even if it is just one literary hero's attitude), or at least a catharsis of the emotion in spite of the described evil not going away.

L'Étranger offered me nothing at all. That's why there is such a clear disparity between my opinion "yes, it may belong in the canon, if authorities say so, even though I don't find it exceptional at all" and "no, I don't want to ever read that s..t again and would never recommend it to anybody".

Carmody wrote:Congratulations to Rick for posting a stimulating thread on French Lit.

Back on Feb 14, 2019 I set up a thread to get people to discuss these same French book issues over in the thread entitled:
A French Book Reading Resource
https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10113

My sense is that Rick has done more in 1 day to get people talking than I have been able to do in almost three years. So please folks, if I am doing something wrong, please let me know.


It's obvious. Rick came up with a clickbait title :-D :-D :-D And he doesn't shy away from expressing a negative emotion about the books he criticises, which is sometimes a risk in such a discussion. What I admire the best is not that he has created a stimulating thread (even though it is an achievement), but that the thread still seems to oscilate quite well within the acceptable limits of what we consider polite, but without falling to the bland and useless superficial clichés only.

If at any time people wish to join us over there, you are more than welcome. I would love to help out with suggestions but don’t want to be a bore on a topic I love.

Now as to the topic of this thread. Each person has their own tastes in reading as with the enjoyment of ice cream. My particular tastes are for French literature and history of the 20th century. I have not read French books in the genres of scifi, mystery, detective, or fantasy genres. I am not opposed to those genres; they just do not ring any bells for me.


You don't bore! We just have different tastes and I found mine wouldn't be adding much in your thread. I am definitely not thinking that everybody should read my favourite genres (not at all) and I am glad you found your own beloved styles within the French literatures. It just confirms what I've been saying: The French literature is huge, so overgeneralisations are nonsense.

French literature is also like Napoleon who had a whole lot of good and bad to him.

Thanks for your list of recommendations. And I agree, there are also many books, that will be rubbish, which doesn't however condemn a whole literature or even a whole genre. There will be good and rubbish books in both the "more typically French" and "less typically French" current.

rdearman wrote:
guyome wrote: think the reason may be that (if I read rdearman's log correctly) he's reading books that were given to him, books he didn't chose himself

Yes, that is true. The books I'm reading now were all "gifted" to me by people. When I worked for a French company, I used to ask French people visiting the UK offices to bring me any old books they had lying around. This ended with me getting quite an eclectic, and incongruous collection of French books. The object here was simply to get books in French, the content was never really an interest since I only wanted them to practice reading in French and learn vocabulary.

:-D There's the explanation! You basically asked people to give you rubbish books :-D Of course they were not gonna give you their favourites!!! It's possible they hated the same things about these books as you do.


Over the years I've read a few that interested me and gave away others which didn't. I ended with 22 books I thought I might read in future. Recently my wife has decreed that "all that crap needs to go" and I have been purging books left, right and centre. I've managed to remove 2 bookshelves, but still have 3 filled to the brim.


And now there are people in the world, who were given those books. And unless they've also happened to read many more books (which were not gifted with the intention of the original owner or two getting rid of the crap), they are asking the same question: "Why are French books so rubbish?" :-D

Some clarifications, I did recently read an autobiography of a guy who grew up in Nazi occupied France. That was pretty good, modern and not a lot of navel-gazing. I have also read (not recently) some books by Maigret, which were OK, but nothing I would be scouring the Internet to find more of.


Good, perhaps biographies and similar non fiction (or half-fiction in many cases) will be viable path.

Btw I've just encountered a totally Rubbish French Book. Not my choice, my dad asked me to buy it for a friend or colleague of his. "Tant qu'on est tous les deux" by Tchakaloff. It's supposedly a reporter's book about the Macrons, and it's one of the worst things I've ever tried to read. Before sending it away, I read the first chapter and then one random chapter in the middle. And it made me think of this thread so much!!! The navels may be under the cloths, but the "navel-gazing" term is so fitting. It's a horrible book, where the journalist spends several pages looking into pseudo-psychologycal cliché filled analyse of every wink or breath of Macron's mother during a short interview, and another chapter on pseudo-poetic and cliché filled chapter on a stagiare flirting (or more) with everybody. And given the large font, I don't think my sample from this book was that small, it's probably all rubbish.

The whole thing is much more about the journalist's feelings of importance like "oh, I know you cannot show it in public, but we've become such close friends, Emmanuel". And about pseudo-discoveries of what might the environment at Elysées feel like. Honestly, if this person wasn't proven to be a journalist, I'd read the text not as a normal reader, but as a psychiatrist faced with another psychotic person with delusional ideas including famous people, and graphomania. :-D
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby kimmitt » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:26 pm

You might be right, but I've enjoyed everything I've read Amélie Nothomb. Also Chanson Douce by Leila Slimani was quite a good read.
Neither of these people are French nationals, of course.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Carmody » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:39 pm

Amélie Nothomb

Research shows Amélie Nothomb was born in Etterbeek, Brussels-Capital Region on 9 July 1966.[3] She has consistently claimed to have been born in Kobe, Japan in 1967 but records show her living there only from ages two to five.[3] Subsequently, she lived in China, New York, Bangladesh, Burma, the United Kingdom (Coventry) and Laos.[4] She stems from a Belgian noble family. Her father was the Belgian diplomat Patrick Nothomb, and she is the grandniece of Charles-Ferdinand Nothomb, a Belgian foreign minister (1980–1981), and great granddaughter of writer and politician Pierre Nothomb.[4] She has one brother and one sister.


Leïla Slimani
Leïla was born in Rabat, Morocco on 3 October 1981; she grew up in a liberal, French-speaking household and attended French schools. An important rupture in Slimani's childhood occurred in 1993 when her father was falsely implicated in a finance scandal and fired from his position as president of the CIH Bank (he was later officially exonerated. Slimani left Morocco at the age of 17 for Paris to study political science and media studies at the Sciences Po and ESCP Europe.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:01 pm

quite a lot of French writers are from French-speaking ex-colonies (or Belgium/Switzerland). I missed the reason this came up in the thread and don't think it really matters since the majority of these people writing in French generally have been educated in it from birth.

This is a bit of an aside, so I won't run with it, but I've always failed to understand the alleged 'typical Belgian French' accent the French claim to hear. It's a caricature generally portrayed as a throat-scraping thing as though someone is chewing on a live microphone.
It may well be my failure because I'm not super at hearing all regional accents. Brussels accent/dialect is what it appears these people seem to be talking about most of the time. I've heard some strange dialect things there, it's true. I asked people in Brussels what these strange words were supposed to be and got some examples. They tend to be either localised variants of French phrases or influence from Dutch, like 'Potferdek', which seems to be 'potverdikkie' which is a polite version of Godverdomme! Also the tendency to use 'ainsi' to mean something between pareil/tel. Not all that exciting. Mostly because the Belgians aren't obsessed with French hypercorrection (even though the French are, but make hundreds of their own mistakes anyway).

I knew some Belgian people in France and as far as I could tell they were speaking standard French, perhaps with an accent colouring from wherever they hailed. It never seemed to me to bear any resemblance to that caricature. Lots of neighbouring countries say weird things about the Belgians. The Dutch popularly call them 'dom' (stupid) even though the Belgians regularly defeat the Dutch at the Grote Dictee, thus demonstrating their linguistic superiority (!).

The moral for this thread is: don't buy books written by trendy, young Belgian French novelists because they have loads of impossible and unfathomable slang in them, even worse than the argot/verlan things. I've tried it.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Carmody » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:45 pm

When is an author French or Belgian or American?

Albert Camus
Born 7 November 1913 in Mondovi, French Algeria (present-day Dréan, Algeria)
In 1933, Camus enrolled at the University of Algiers and completed his licence de philosophie (BA) in 1936.

Amélie Nothomb
Born 13 August 1967
Kobe, Japan
Research shows Amélie Nothomb was born in Etterbeek, Brussels-Capital Region on 9 July 1966. She has consistently claimed to have been born in Kobe, Japan in 1967 but records show her living there only from ages two to five

Saul Bellow
Born Solomon Bellows 10 June 1915
Lachine, Quebec, Canada
His The Adventures of Augie March won the 1954 U.S. National Book Award for Fiction. Both Time magazine and the Modern Library Board named it one of the hundred best novels in the English language.

Irène Némirovsky
born 11 February 1903 – 17 August 1942
Was a novelist of Ukrainian Jewish origin who was born in Kiev, Ukraine under the Russian Empire. She lived more than half her life in France, and wrote in French, but was denied French citizenship. Arrested as a Jew under the racial laws – which did not take into account her conversion to Roman Catholicism – she died at Auschwitz at the age of 39. Némirovsky is best known for the posthumously published Suite française.

Joseph Conrad
Born Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
3 December 1857, Berdychiv, Russian Empire
Died 3 August 1924 (aged 66)
Bishopsbourne, Kent, England
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