French books are rubbish?

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RyanSmallwood
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby RyanSmallwood » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:48 pm

Le Baron wrote:If any of that were true (it isn't) there wouldn't be numerous posts all over this forum decrying the dearth of anything beyond the types of books as described above by rdearman - which is the very point of the thread.

I mean, that would only be the case if they'd read or sampled every French book out there, which seems unlikely. In my experience a lot of people don't know how to go about finding book recommendations, and it gets much trickier to find good book recommendations in another language. Most people aren't heavy readers in the first place, and many native speakers won't know all kinds of books available in their first language.

Countries may have certain "specialties" or genre/styles that they are most known for and gets lots of attention. But there's always subcultures and people who don't fit in with whatever is most popular in any given place, and they'll always create alternatives. The fact that other kinds of literature get translated shows there's demand to read other kinds of things, so if a certain style/genre is read somewhere, it wouldn't be so much of a stretch to think that it gets written as well.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:50 pm

Le Baron wrote:If any of that were true (it isn't) there wouldn't be numerous posts all over this forum decrying the dearth of anything beyond the types of books as described above by rdearman - which is the very point of the thread.

France publishes a lot of diverse books, but to opine that there isn't a particular French approach to literature (of all kinds) would suggest to me only a passing familiarity with French writing.


I never suggested there wasn't a particular French approach to literature, I just stated the truth that it is not just one approach, and that French literature is pretty diverse. The "French approach" is more obvious in some genres and authors, than others. If you cannot agree with that, then I suggest you read a bit more, to get to my level of familiarity instead of the passing one ;-)

Really, most of the forum posts complaining about this have one thing in common: the dissatisfied readers haven't actually explored much beyond the most commonly recommended books yet. That is the problem. The same books and the same kinds of books get recommended all the time, which leads to stereotypes about a whole literary tradition
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:06 pm

RyanSmallwood wrote:
Le Baron wrote:If any of that were true (it isn't) there wouldn't be numerous posts all over this forum decrying the dearth of anything beyond the types of books as described above by rdearman - which is the very point of the thread.

I mean, that would only be the case if they'd read or sampled every French book out there, which seems unlikely. In my experience a lot of people don't know how to go about finding book recommendations, and it gets much trickier to find good book recommendations in another language. Most people aren't heavy readers in the first place, and many native speakers won't know all kinds of books available in their first language.

Countries may have certain "specialties" or genre/styles that they are most known for and gets lots of attention. But there's always subcultures and people who don't fit in with whatever is most popular in any given place, and they'll always create alternatives. The fact that other kinds of literature get translated shows there's demand to read other kinds of things, so if a certain style/genre is read somewhere, it wouldn't be so much of a stretch to think that it gets written as well.

I'm not entirely certain what's being said here. No-one reads every book in any language, but anyone can look for or sample at least one example of available material. The facts seem to show that a lot of the most popular French writing (fiction at least) has a similar bent. To see what people in France are reading you just go to the current sales lists. To see what people have most enjoyed in the past, you check the book reviews and other overview material. I've been reading French books - at least beyond comics and children's books - now for 36 years. I would hope that might give me at least basic familiarity with what is there. Certainly I don't think I would have a 100% comprehensive coverage because there are certain types of books i just don't care for, but I know what French people generally care for outside of subculture reading, which is limited by definition because it's a subculture!
Last edited by Le Baron on Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:10 pm

Cavesa wrote:Really, most of the forum posts complaining about this have one thing in common: the dissatisfied readers haven't actually explored much beyond the most commonly recommended books yet. That is the problem. The same books and the same kinds of books get recommended all the time, which leads to stereotypes about a whole literary tradition

There is some truth in the view that many of the same books are recommended over and over. I'd think though that people busy with reading, like Carmody, who seems to look quite thoroughly for reading material, would have discovered radically different types of literature.

I don't shy away from saying that I don't consider potboilers about child wizards to be 'literature' of any great worth.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:43 pm

Le Baron wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Really, most of the forum posts complaining about this have one thing in common: the dissatisfied readers haven't actually explored much beyond the most commonly recommended books yet. That is the problem. The same books and the same kinds of books get recommended all the time, which leads to stereotypes about a whole literary tradition

There is some truth in the view that many of the same books are recommended over and over. I'd think though that people busy with reading, like Carmody, who seems to look quite thoroughly for reading material, would have discovered radically different types of literature.

Not necessarily, most readers actually focus on just some genres, so even such a reader as Carmody may simply not reach outside of a pool they already know they like. Once you find your favourites, it is much easier to look for similar books and avoid disappointments (whether that means "too French" or "not French enough" to you), than when you are still finding your place as a reader in a new language and tradition.

I don't shy away from saying that I don't consider potboilers about child wizards to be 'literature' of any great worth.


Well, there is much more than just Harry Potter. You are being very snobbish, if you basically divide literature into stuff you like and that fits your expectations=literature of worth, and everything else=potboilers.

If you put your haughty attitude aside for a bit, you might be actually pleasantly surprised by the literature that is very good, internationally acclaimed, totally French, but totally not falling into the same stereotypes discussed in this thread. For example lots of thrillers or detective fiction, or even scifi.

When it comes to contemporary authors aspiring to be high litterature, or general fiction bestseller writer, then yes. Most will conform to the stereotypes/proudly carry on the tradition, whichever description fits your views more. But you might still find more variety, than you'd expect. However, most French readers looking for something very different from "navel-gazing" (as rdearman nicely sums it up) will do the logical thing, and buy a totally French thriller for example.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:28 pm

I do read thrillers and detective stories and humour books. The last thriller was Trois jours et une vie, (Pierre Lemaitre) while I was in bed ill. Also Deux gouttes d'eau. Remember this is not my thread, I don't have that much trouble finding things I want to read, I just know that quite a lot of people do. And that even thrillers and other modern French writing has a particular and recognisable tone which troubles some people. That's what it's about: a tone particular to French writing.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Adrianslont » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:11 am

Okay. You like crime genre fiction?

I just searched under your name and found you have never mentioned the three authors I like most so maybe you have never read them?

Fred Vargas - contemporary crime with strange kind of historical twists / magic realism. A bit brainier than most crime genre fiction which would normally mark it down in my book - but basically police procedurals and I like her. Try Pars Vite et Reviens Tard

Frederic Dard - more crime fiction from 1950s to 1980s I think. Hundreds of them. I’ve only read two and I find them a bit hard because he uses less common slang and even makes up a lot of his own. But he’s fun. I will read more as my reading improves.

Georges Simenon - you’ve never read any Maigret? A bit more straightforward than the above two authors but solid. I like the sense of place and characterisation. Police procedural combined with Maigret’s domestic life.

If you like Dard or Simenon you will have lots to read.

Edit: I know Simenon is Belgian but he’s francophone and most (?) of his books are set in Paris or elsewhere in France, at least the ones I’ve read.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby guyome » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:55 am

Adrianslont wrote:Georges Simenon - you’ve never read any Maigret? A bit more straightforward than the above two authors but solid. I like the sense of place and characterisation. Police procedural combined with Maigret’s domestic life.
Reading a Maigret is like watching a magic trick to me. Maigret goes there, comes back, eats, drinks, goes somewhere else, smokes, grumbles and suddenly the murder is solved. It always feels like he isn't doing much. They're not action-packed books, Simenon real force lies in the way he makes the surroundings almost palpable to the reader, but without engaging in page-long descriptions. With just a few sentences, you can see the brasserie, smell the choucroute and the beer, feel the rain pouring down on Maigret.

The other great force of the Maigret books is Maigret's humanity and empathy. He has to barge into people's lives unannounced but he knows that's how he'll solve the crime, by understanding the victim as a human being. And he needs it not just to solve the crime but for himself too, he needs to be able to understand the whole situation on a human level. His investigation is more about the people, more about the how we got there in the first place than about the how it was done. He likes people and it shows.

For instance, the last one I read starts with a guy being stabbed to death in a dead-end street. Immediately the juge d'instruction goes for "he was probably killed for his money, nothing to see here". But Maigret is intrigued by the dead man's shoes. Not that they're weird shoes in themselves but Maigret feels their color just doesn't really match the dead man's trade/social position (1950s France, when this type of things would be more noticeable). So already you see that Maigret is interested in the murder not because of some clue à la Sherlock Holmes, like the shoes not being of the right size or the like, but because he wants to understand why such a man would wear such shoes. Maigret spends most of the book reconstructing the dead man's life, questioning his wife, his children, his ex-coworkers, painting a full picture of a man in an unhappy marriage, crushed by unemployment and his wife's social ambitions. Nothing crazy, just a piece of everyday 1950s human drama: he's only a magasinier while his in-laws have the distinction of working for the SNCF (French National Railway Company)! They have job security and will get a pension, and his wife resents him for not being like her sisters' husbands.
In the end, the crime is not solved along those family lines and there's an exchange between Maigret and the juge d'instruction highlighting this (basically "Just killed for his money, as you thought, M. le Juge.") but you can feel that in Maigret's mind the judge, despite being technically right, has missed on the most important/interesting aspect of the whole thing.

Frederic Dard - more crime fiction from 1950s to 1980s I think. Hundreds of them. I’ve only read two and I find them a bit hard because he uses less common slang and even makes up a lot of his own. But he’s fun. I will read more as my reading improves.
I've read about a dozen San Antonios last year. That was quite the reading experience. The womanising part hasn't exactly aged well in this post-Me Too era but, language wise, they are fascinating books.
Just the other day, I bookmarked some pages I thougt I could post about here to draw attention to the books. I think they may be the most untranlatable French books ever written, something like French literature's ultimate frontier. Understanding all the schoolyard puns, dad jokes, allusions, etc., would be near impossible but it certainly makes them a good place to stretch your French.
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby lusan » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:00 pm

cito wrote:
Cavesa wrote:And for the record: I didn't like l'Étranger. It may be a canon book, it may be objectively good, if some say so, but I hated it.


That's so funny! I really loved it in English, so I decided to read it in French. I'm not close to being done but I'm enjoying it so far by reading it through LingQ. At least you read it before judging it... you're much better than most haha... but hey, to each their own.


L'Etranger funny? Maybe I missed something but a book about the senseless of existence didn't appear so to me. I will never forget la nausea I felt when the book described the mother's funeral... Of course, that was the point of the book, right? But funny?!
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Re: French books are rubbish?

Postby Cavesa » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:28 pm

lusan wrote:
cito wrote:
Cavesa wrote:And for the record: I didn't like l'Étranger. It may be a canon book, it may be objectively good, if some say so, but I hated it.


That's so funny! I really loved it in English, so I decided to read it in French. I'm not close to being done but I'm enjoying it so far by reading it through LingQ. At least you read it before judging it... you're much better than most haha... but hey, to each their own.


L'Etranger funny? Maybe I missed something but a book about the senseless of existence didn't appear so to me. I will never forget la nausea I felt when the book described the mother's funeral... Of course, that was the point of the book, right? But funny?!


I think cito didn't mean the book was "funny", but rather my dislike for it was "funny". Some people have a hard time imagining others have different tastes, in spite of mentioning it at the end of the comment. Cito mistook a simple difference in opinion for some kind of a flaw or failure, it seemed.

guyome wrote:
Adrianslont wrote:Georges Simenon - you’ve never read any Maigret? A bit more straightforward than the above two authors but solid. I like the sense of place and characterisation. Police procedural combined with Maigret’s domestic life.
Reading a Maigret is like watching a magic trick to me. Maigret goes there, comes back, eats, drinks, goes somewhere else, smokes, grumbles and suddenly the murder is solved. It always feels like he isn't doing much. They're not action-packed books, Simenon real force lies in the way he makes the surroundings almost palpable to the reader, but without engaging in page-long descriptions. With just a few sentences, you can see the brasserie, smell the choucroute and the beer, feel the rain pouring down on Maigret.


Some good detective novels tips. Even though I'm not sure Simenon will satisfy rdearman, based on the presented tastes. Not sure. I was not too convinced by Maigret so far, but it's possible one needs a different mood. I liked Vargas a lot. And her books definitely deserve to be read in original. Not sure what are the other translations like, but the Czech translator really messed up (making the book more boring overall and even "correcting" the author and characters, using much blander language, making the characters much more alike. If The Author for example chooses their character to swear, than so be it.)

But the three authors (and there are many more in the genre) nicely show that there are various ways to approach the same genre, all of them authentically French, but likely to appeal to a bit different readers.
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