Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

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acorngalaxy
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Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby acorngalaxy » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:01 pm

I’m talking about the DELE Exam (Spanish). I want to take it at the C2 level, but I’m not sure if it’s worth the risk (and money), or if the certificate will really be beneficial for my life.

I’m using Spanish at work now (office internship). I’m a student about to graduate. I attend meetings in Spanish. I coordinate projects and clarify stuff with co-workers in Spanish. That got me really thinking- Spanish actually does come in handy at work… should I take the DELE to appear more “credible”?

I have a really strong desire to take the exam. I really do. I love Spanish, my dream is to move to Spain, but…

-The price of the DELE + tutoring sessions. It’s going to cost me thousands.

-The risk; if I fail, all my money goes down the drain.

- Time: 2 months of intensive preparation, while juggling work life and other languages. RIP social life with friends and the little pleasures in life (eg. watching English Nextflix shows)

Should I take the DELE despite the cost and risks?

*My tutor, who is a DELE examiner, said that my Spanish is a C1 level in May. Not sure about now, I could have gone rusty… or improved a lot.

** You could say: Why not take the C1 or B2? I prefer not to if possible. I don’t know why. Maybe because I like to turn the difficulty level all the way up.
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby Cavesa » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:49 pm

YES!

I regretted (and actually still regret) not having taken the DELE C1, back when I had the opportunity to prepare without much of a problem and take the exam.

Why: you often don't know, whether you'll need it. And when you need it, it will be most probably too late to just get it. Your opportunity is not likely to wait around for half a year, while you wait for the nearest sign up date, exam date, and results.

Yes, DELE will make you appear more credible. We live in a world full of people lying about their language skills, so employers and other institutions are not too trusting. Even if DELE is not obligatory somewhere, it will make you stand out of the usual crowd.

C1 is definitely ok, so taking DELE C1 might be a good choice. C2 makes a very good impression, but nobody really demands C2, unless you're after a translator job (which usually requires specific certificates and degrees anyways). B2 is not enough. For example in my field, you either get a C1 exam or you don't need to bother with any exam at all, B2 is just as worthless as A1. In some fields, B2 or even B1 is ok, but it is imho stupid for someone at C1 or near C2 to take an easy exam just out of fear.

As to the problems: I don't know about your schedule, you know the best. But I took my DALF C2 while in medschool, and the only dates available collided with the exams. Yes, I got a bad microbiology grade as I focused mainly on the DALF, but French opened me the door to a much better career, while a microbiology grade doesn't matter at all :-D It's about priorities.

About the money: Do you really need the tutor? And if so, do you need so much tutoring, that it will cost you thousands of euros/dollars? Is all your time with the tutor well spent? You don't need the tutor for any comprehension practice, or for anything you can do on your own. Perhaps you can make the time more efficient, or cut it down. How many hours of tutoring do you plan to fit in the 2 months, to spend thousands on it?

What keeps you from watching your Netflix in Spanish? It's more fun than in English! Your friends will probably understand that you're preparing an exam (it's normal to not have that much time all the time). Your job is likely to be a bigger issue, but you know the best whether it is doable. And other languages? Unless you have some exams in them or something, you can put them aside for two months without much of a problem.
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby IronMike » Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:40 am

YES! (I say, with caveat.)

I've only once had to pay for a language test, and the payment was reasonable. (45 euros I think.) All my other tests have been free (DLPTs).

Not sure how much a DELE test is, but I would say it is probably still worth it. How else do you really know your proficiency? An instructor can tell you anything, but an impartial panel (or however many are involved) determining your proficiency is much better than anything someone you've already got a relationship with tells you. IMHO.

Plus, like I say in my sig block, you don't really know your proficiency until you've been tested. It's one thing to have an instructor tell you you're B2 or whatever, but it's whole other thing to be sitting across a table from three native speakers who are drilling you, interrupting you, for hours.
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby Cavesa » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:39 am

IronMike wrote:Not sure how much a DELE test is, but I would say it is probably still worth it. How else do you really know your proficiency? An instructor can tell you anything,

Approximately 150-250 euro, if I remember correctly. Not thousands, but it is not too cheap either. An alternative, SIELE, is unfortunately just as expensive and doesn't test C2, only A1-C1.

The instructor is definitely not a 100% reliable source, not only because of the relationship and a possible clash of interests, but often also due to lack of experience, which is the most common problem. This one is also an examiner, as the OP says, so at least this is ok, the qualification is there. But the other interests (most commonly flattering the learner to keep them paying due to a nice feeling, or underestimating the learner to keep them paying for more lessons due to low confidence) can still play a role.

And of course, even a 100% precise instructor assessment is no different than self assessment on a CV. It is simply not reliable for anyone else. I'd like to use the moment to just put here a little reminder: don't pay any language school for a certificate of their own CEFR test, it is worthless, just a way to get more money from you. You are not saving money by getting a cheaper equivalent to the real exam, you are wasting money on a worthless piece of paper.


Plus, like I say in my sig block, you don't really know your proficiency until you've been tested. It's one thing to have an instructor tell you you're B2 or whatever, but it's whole other thing to be sitting across a table from three native speakers who are drilling you, interrupting you, for hours.


While I agree about the value of the exams, I think people shouldn't be promised/scared with something not realistic. No, there won't be a panel of three natives drilling you for hours, that's simply not happening. In most exams, DELE C2 included, you get like 20 minutes with 2 native speakers. And usually it is not normal to interrupt you and drill too much, the exams are about evaluating your "normal" speaking. It sounds easier at first (who would want to be grilled afterall), but it is a challenge, as you also need to push yourself harder to really show your abilities the best.

https://examenes.cervantes.es/sites/def ... ele_c2.pdf
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby AroAro » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:57 am

acorngalaxy wrote: if the certificate will really be beneficial for my life.

should I take the DELE to appear more “credible”?


These two are very important questions and it's hard to provide a satisfactory answer that would dissipate your doubts. I think you should have a look at your local job market and check if employers/recruiters really need those certificates. Does your current employer suggest that you take the exam? I have certificates in English and Italian (B2 level, I'm aware there's a long way to C1) plus master's degree in French (which in theory proves C1 skills) but honestly it never mattered - recruiters always checked my language skills during job interviews by themselves or arranged calls/videocalls with native speakers. The situation may vary from country to country so it's best to look around you to assess their expectations.

Also, you are probably aware that you'll have to learn a lot of stuff explicitely for the exam and in fact, learn how to pass a language exam but you say you have a really strong desire so that shouldn't be a problem. And the exam certifies your skills at the moment of the exam, in 10 years' time the results may no longer be valid.

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here!
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby Cavesa » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:27 am

AroAro wrote:Does your current employer suggest that you take the exam? I have certificates in English and Italian (B2 level, I'm aware there's a long way to C1) plus master's degree in French (which in theory proves C1 skills) but honestly it never mattered - recruiters always checked my language skills during job interviews by themselves or arranged calls/videocalls with native speakers. The situation may vary from country to country so it's best to look around you to assess their expectations.


Yes, it varies. In some countries or fields, the certificate helps get you to the interview, where you are likely to be tested by the recruiters. The people without exam may just be thrown to the bin, automatically considered either delusional or frauds. But it depends.

Also, it's important to look not only at the local employers now. The current employer may actually not be interested in the employee improving their CV, so I wouldn't trust their opinion (it's very common to sabotage or at least discourage employees' further qualifications, so that they won't leave for a better offer). The local market may also change in the years to come, so some guesswork and observation of wider trends than just the local ones can be useful.

Also, you are probably aware that you'll have to learn a lot of stuff explicitely for the exam and in fact, learn how to pass a language exam but you say you have a really strong desire so that shouldn't be a problem. And the exam certifies your skills at the moment of the exam, in 10 years' time the results may no longer be valid.

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here!


That depends, and I don't really think there is so much stuff learnt "explicitely for the exam". People may think so, but I actually found the totally distorted DALF writing (which is a huge problem to learn, due to lack of resources) to be a good practice for my later writing at work. So, I think leaving the comfort zone and learning stuff "for the exam" is actually one of the most valuable aspects of the whole experience.

DELE will still be valid, still the same thing on CVs. But it can be unacceptably old for some types of institutions in spite of the validity, that's true (I've just made a similar unpleasant experience).
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby Le Baron » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:14 pm

Just to mix it up a little regarding people with this or that certification and their actual value...

Whenever I got the chance to be part of the interview panel for new teaching or auxiliary staff (this was an institution with a fairly international recruitment policy) the presentation of language proficiency skill certificates on an applicant's CV still required a 'test' if the language was intended to be used. Some people have "C1" or even C2 on their CV (many just write 'fluent'). Then you, or another person brought in to speak whatever language, speak to them in that language and sometimes they - let's say 40-50% - were not quite as excellent as the certification suggested.

I think there are several reasons for this. I'll quickly enumerate them below:
1. People with strengths in different core areas pass the exam.
2. Having passed the exam the quality of knowledge can go up or down over time.
3. Many people understand more than they can say (or can talk a lot with what they know, but not understand all areas). Even people who pass a C1 exam.
4. Passing an exam doesn't always mean you can manipulate the language for nuanced, specialist communication.
5. Simple interview nerves affecting the performance.

There are probably more. Back when I arrived from Belgium and had been using French daily at an adult further education college, I got to sit on an interview panel here in NL to assess both English and French. Some people were good, many not. The certificates (when necessary) got people interviews, but not necessarily past interviews. You get people who underestimate their ability and people who overestimate it.

To cut this short, do I think passing a language exam is useful? Yes! For several reasons: personal motivation and outside confirmation that you've succeeded in learning/mastering your target language. And of course a shortcut to indicating that you have some level of proficiency, which is what all official qualifications are for.
In sum though, the official title is really only as good as the individual student. Which goes for any qualification. It's often been said, but I'll say it again, I've met quite a lot of 'but I'm B2/C1/C2!' people who really aren't as good as they think. And in any case unless you're good at the stuff for the actual intended job (biochemist, historian etc) being "C2" at Japanese or German is irrelevant.
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby s_allard » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:52 pm

In addition to what has already been said about the value C2 certification may or may not have in one’s professional life, I would like to add that a key motivation is just the sheer sense of accomplishing something pretty difficult. Hey, it’s also something that one can brag about discreetly because, truth be told, very few people actually take and pass this test. In my case I’ve never really had to use my DELE C2 certification. The actual certificate is in a drawer somewhere but from time to time I’ve shown it to some people, primarily language teachers, to let them know who they are dealing with.

That said, one thing that I would like to insist on is the value of being forced to study the language seriously. There is nothing like a test in addition to the financial commitment to force you to really work on the more formal aspects of the language. I found that preparing for the C2 exam really took my Spanish to another level that I appreciate to this day.

Finally, I would add that the exam day is an adventure in itself.
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby IronMike » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:53 pm

Cavesa wrote:
IronMike wrote:

Plus, like I say in my sig block, you don't really know your proficiency until you've been tested. It's one thing to have an instructor tell you you're B2 or whatever, but it's whole other thing to be sitting across a table from three native speakers who are drilling you, interrupting you, for hours.


While I agree about the value of the exams, I think people shouldn't be promised/scared with something not realistic. No, there won't be a panel of three natives drilling you for hours, that's simply not happening. In most exams, DELE C2 included, you get like 20 minutes with 2 native speakers. And usually it is not normal to interrupt you and drill too much, the exams are about evaluating your "normal" speaking. It sounds easier at first (who would want to be grilled afterall), but it is a challenge, as you also need to push yourself harder to really show your abilities the best.

https://examenes.cervantes.es/sites/def ... ele_c2.pdf

As I said, the only non-DLPT I've taken was the KER Esperanto writing and reading test. My oral DLPTs (now called OPI - Oral Proficiency Interviews) did have 2-3 instructors, and for me at least took 40-55 minutes. And they interrupted often. (They warn you at the beginning that they will interrupt you to move on to another subject, but it is still shocking when it happens.)

So, while your bold text above may apply to the DELE, it doesn't necessarily apply to all language tests. ;)
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Re: Is it worth taking a language exam? (DELE)

Postby Cavesa » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:23 am

IronMike wrote:As I said, the only non-DLPT I've taken was the KER Esperanto writing and reading test. My oral DLPTs (now called OPI - Oral Proficiency Interviews) did have 2-3 instructors, and for me at least took 40-55 minutes. And they interrupted often. (They warn you at the beginning that they will interrupt you to move on to another subject, but it is still shocking when it happens.)

So, while your bold text above may apply to the DELE, it doesn't necessarily apply to all language tests. ;)


That's definitely possible, but the standard in the CEFR exams (DELE, SIELE, TCF, DALF/DELF, CAE, Goethe, CILS, and so on) is much closer to what I described in bold than to what you describe.

Honestly, the OPI/DLPT sound very tempting to me now that I've read your description, and very different. But I simply didn't want to scare people away from the other exams with something that doesn't apply to them

s_allard wrote:In addition to what has already been said about the value C2 certification may or may not have in one’s professional life, I would like to add that a key motivation is just the sheer sense of accomplishing something pretty difficult. Hey, it’s also something that one can brag about discreetly because, truth be told, very few people actually take and pass this test. In my case I’ve never really had to use my DELE C2 certification. The actual certificate is in a drawer somewhere but from time to time I’ve shown it to some people, primarily language teachers, to let them know who they are dealing with.


Yes, I agree with this post, even though my experience has been different. I need my C2 exam, I use it instead of the C1 demanded one and it makes a bit of extra good impression (a friend with a lower exam has gotten into a few unpleasant situations in spite of having fulfilled all the official language requirements). The "discreet bragging" can be nice too. It happened to me once or twice to use my C2 French as an argument, when someone was trying to turn their mistake into the usual sort of "oh, you are just a stupid foreigner, who couldn't understand the situation, I am willing to forgive you" situation. Nope, this won't work, I have a proof that no, it is extremely probably not a misunderstanding on my part :-D It's surprising that some natives really try to do this, when they mess up. It's both the existence of the certificate, but also the well supported self confidence that allow me to respond like this.

Le Baron wrote: The certificates (when necessary) got people interviews, but not necessarily past interviews. You get people who underestimate their ability and people who overestimate it.


Yes, this is very true. But getting to the interview is a necessary obstacle to overcome, so I think the value shouldn't be underestimated.

I'd say the reasons why some people really don't perform as well in person are even more numerous:

I think there are several reasons for this. I'll quickly enumerate them below:
1. People with strengths in different core areas pass the exam.
2. Having passed the exam the quality of knowledge can go up or down over time.
3. Many people understand more than they can say (or can talk a lot with what they know, but not understand all areas). Even people who pass a C1 exam.
4. Passing an exam doesn't always mean you can manipulate the language for nuanced, specialist communication.
5. Simple interview nerves affecting the performance.


6.The preparatory courses and tutoring. In some cases, it is possible to drill the person the typical assignments so much, that their exam performance will be much better than the real life skills. (I was shocked, when I heard CAE candidates complaining like "it's so unfair that the exam is different from the preparatory book" during a break)

7.Not just nerves during the interviews, but also a generally lower confidence in a foreign language. I find that passing an exam can help with that, but it is overall a huge problem and people are scared to perform in a foreign language. No wonder, if so many teachers keep telling them for years "XY is such a hard language" and failing to progress efficiently with them. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and leads to underperforming.

And in any case unless you're good at the stuff for the actual intended job (biochemist, historian etc) being "C2" at Japanese or German is irrelevant.


Does this really need to be said? Why should those two things be exclusive? :-)
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