About accents

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
x 3631

Re: About accents

Postby luke » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:55 am

Jder9720 wrote:My native language is Spanish and when i speak English i sound american because i have made tons and tons of listening input, so when i talk in English is almost as if i was "playing" a recorded audio in my mouth, this recorded version comes from all the input listening i've gathered through the years.

I'm curious about this. When I try to speak Spanish with a good accent, I use a lot of mouth movement that natives typically don't seem to need to do.

I was listening to a Spaniard today and he spoke some English with a reasonable American accent. Sounded a bit like actor Owen Wison. I noticed the Spaniard also did a lot of mouth movement and I could even see see the tension in his neck compared to when he was speaking Spanish.

Do you notice anything like that?
1 x

Jder9720
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:32 am
Languages: Spanish (N)
English (?)
Russian (beginner)
x 1

Re: About accents

Postby Jder9720 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:53 am

luke wrote:
I'm curious about this. When I try to speak Spanish with a good accent, I use a lot of mouth movement that natives typically don't seem to need to do.

I was listening to a Spaniard today and he spoke some English with a reasonable American accent. Sounded a bit like actor Owen Wison. I noticed the Spaniard also did a lot of mouth movement and I could even see see the tension in his neck compared to when he was speaking Spanish.

Do you notice anything like that?


Well i'm from south America and the spanish we speak here sounds different from the spanish they speak in Spain. They have different accents even inside the country. By the way that difference is only in accent and some little grammar details, we can understand each other perfectly.

And no, honestly i haven't noticed nothing like that in the way Spaniards talk.
0 x

User avatar
AllSubNoDub
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:44 pm
Languages: English (N)
Speaks: Spanish (B1+), German (B2 dormant)
Learns: Japanese (Kanji only)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17191
x 475

Re: About accents

Postby AllSubNoDub » Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:12 pm

luke wrote:
Jder9720 wrote:My native language is Spanish and when i speak English i sound american because i have made tons and tons of listening input, so when i talk in English is almost as if i was "playing" a recorded audio in my mouth, this recorded version comes from all the input listening i've gathered through the years.

I'm curious about this. When I try to speak Spanish with a good accent, I use a lot of mouth movement that natives typically don't seem to need to do.

I was listening to a Spaniard today and he spoke some English with a reasonable American accent. Sounded a bit like actor Owen Wison. I noticed the Spaniard also did a lot of mouth movement and I could even see see the tension in his neck compared to when he was speaking Spanish.

Do you notice anything like that?


I've noticed this as well. I feel like my Spanish accent improved when I started watching videos of Spanish speakers rather than just listening to recordings. I've noticed that (many) Spanish speakers show their teeth more than English speakers, almost as if they're smiling when they're talking.

On flip side, in Japanese people tend to speak with a tight, narrow mouth. This actually has some evidence behind it, as there are said to only be three mouth positions in Japanese anime (closed, half-way open, all the way open) with little variation, which makes English dubovers notoriously difficult. (To be fair, the amount of diphthongs and crazy vowel sounds in English make me feel lucky that I grew up with the language.)

Assuming you've given it your all in developing a good accent, including but not limited to: studied the phonetics and phonology of your L2, analyzed IPA representations and anatomical graphs for tongue and mouth positions, analyzed breath patterns, studied prosody/intonation/pitch/etc., chosen an "accent role model", done extensive daily shadowing, had natives or even trained phonologists/phoneticians professionally analyze and critique your accent, you still (likely) may have L1 interference.

I'm convinced that L1 accent interfering with your L2 has just as much to do with muscle memory as it does with one's mental perception of sounds. When I first started speaking German, my mouth ached for an entire week. The same happened recently with my Spanish revival. Unless you have some special talent, I think it may be required to let your L1 muscles/muscle memory atrophy a bit before you can truly reach your peak in accent formation as an adult learner. Sorry to hijack.

Edited for clarity
Last edited by AllSubNoDub on Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
6 x

User avatar
luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
x 3631

Re: About accents

Postby luke » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:02 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:
luke wrote:I was listening to a Spaniard today and he spoke some English with a reasonable American accent. Sounded a bit like actor Owen Wison. I noticed the Spaniard also did a lot of mouth movement and I could even see see the tension in his neck compared to when he was speaking Spanish.

Do you notice anything like that?


I've noticed this as well. I feel like my Spanish accent improved when I started watching videos of Spanish speakers rather than just recordings. I've noticed that (many) Spanish speakers show their teeth more than English speakers, almost as if they're smiling when they're talking.

I'm convinced that L1 accent interfering with your L2 has just as much to do with muscle memory as it does with one's mental perception of sounds. When I first started speaking German, my mouth ached for an entire week. The same happened recently with my Spanish revival. Unless you have some special talent, I think it may be required to let your L1 muscles/muscle memory atrophy a bit before you can truly reach your peak in accent formation as an adult learner. Sorry to hijack.

That makes a lot of sense.

I wonder if the extra effort we use trying to pronounce our target language well is engaging helper muscles that natives don't need to engage because their smaller muscles are already used to doing the heavy lifting.
2 x

User avatar
lusan
Green Belt
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:25 pm
Location: Greensboro, NC, USA
Languages: Spanish(Native)
English (Naïve)
French(Intermediate)
Italian(Intermediate)
Polish(In Alcatraz)
x 985

Re: About accents

Postby lusan » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:13 pm

Iversen wrote:Are you referring to native speakers who try to emulate other accents than their own - and fail?

In a sense everyone here is a wannabee since we want to sound as much as native speakers as possible - but in at least one other language than our own one.


Well... Not me.
I really do not care.
It is not even important.

I already know that, for me, it is impossible.
I think I read somewhere that those who don't learn a language
in the infancy can't get rid of their accent. It might be true.
0 x
Italian, polish, and French dance
FSI Basic French Lessons : 10 / 24 17 of 24 goal

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3510
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9389

Re: About accents

Postby Le Baron » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:54 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:I'm convinced that L1 accent interfering with your L2 has just as much to do with muscle memory as it does with one's mental perception of sounds. When I first started speaking German, my mouth ached for an entire week.

There's definitely something in this. Back when I was in Belgium speaking mostly French I found it tiring to do either German or Dutch, with soreness in the larynx and jaw. Years later, using mostly Dutch, I had a period where French took more physical effort, but German not so much. French is spoken at the front of the mouth a lot and even similar words are produced in a different way.

Not being a linguist I always wondered how, when a child supposedly just mimics fellow native speakers, they know how or where to place their tongue or lips or manipulate the throat? It's not even physically visible! I have an uvular trill I copied from my mother (which is useful for other languages), I don't remember how that happened. My brother speaks French (when he does these days) with a rasping, guttural 'r'. So why did we not conform to a single type even though we had the same models?

Of course if anyone thinks back you'll remember people who deviated from the so-called norm even in their native language, being unable to physically produce some sounds, and yet are completely intelligible and taken as native without question.
2 x

User avatar
AllSubNoDub
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:44 pm
Languages: English (N)
Speaks: Spanish (B1+), German (B2 dormant)
Learns: Japanese (Kanji only)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17191
x 475

Re: About accents

Postby AllSubNoDub » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:25 pm

luke wrote:
AllSubNoDub wrote:
luke wrote:I was listening to a Spaniard today and he spoke some English with a reasonable American accent. Sounded a bit like actor Owen Wison. I noticed the Spaniard also did a lot of mouth movement and I could even see see the tension in his neck compared to when he was speaking Spanish.

Do you notice anything like that?


I've noticed this as well. I feel like my Spanish accent improved when I started watching videos of Spanish speakers rather than just recordings. I've noticed that (many) Spanish speakers show their teeth more than English speakers, almost as if they're smiling when they're talking.

I'm convinced that L1 accent interfering with your L2 has just as much to do with muscle memory as it does with one's mental perception of sounds. When I first started speaking German, my mouth ached for an entire week. The same happened recently with my Spanish revival. Unless you have some special talent, I think it may be required to let your L1 muscles/muscle memory atrophy a bit before you can truly reach your peak in accent formation as an adult learner. Sorry to hijack.

That makes a lot of sense.

I wonder if the extra effort we use trying to pronounce our target language well is engaging helper muscles that natives don't need to engage because their smaller muscles are already used to doing the heavy lifting.


This is kind of my theory. Or rather, without extreme conscious effort, your motor cortex will subconsciously approximate the sound by activating muscle movements from whatever is closest in your L1 (it takes the path of least resistance). For instance, although my squat form wasn't terrible and I was fairly strong, I knew it was a limiting factor and I had to completely retrain myself with baby weights for a long time because my lizard brain kept falling into the "groove that was already greased"; now I don't even think about it. It turned from a conscious to an unconscious effort; now I think I actually would hurt myself if I returned to my old squat form because I was working a different (weaker) set of stabilizer muscles.

Someone mentioned Luca. Luca has a great American English accent, but yeah, it's not perfect. I think he speaks far too many languages for it to be perfect, so he has interference from L1, L3, L4, ..., Ln. Not to mention he has constant interaction with non-natives and other dialects. In short, unless he spent some time in the States not speaking any other language, I think his accent will always be plastic/in a state of flux, i.e. it will never solidify. (I don't think he's ever spent time in the US though, which makes it even more impressive)

This guy has a pretty dang good west coast AmE accent. I would have to listen for a long time to find a flaw, and even then I would probably be exercising implicit bias because I already know he wasn't born here. I think he's like a professional linguist/phonetician or something though, so that's kind of cheating. :lol:
2 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cainntear, guyome, Sizen and 2 guests