Le Baron wrote:That said, it has to be appreciated that some people might not have quite as much opportunity to run into target language speakers in real life if they don't live near some metropolis. Some are more fortunate. I live near (previously lived in) a major city with a lot of diversity and a university that brings students from around the world, many who stay. It also houses several language and culture schools. So in that respect I can work less hard to find potential LE partners.
And that's why we need to get rid of the myths "you have to speak from day 1" or "you learn to speak only by speaking". They are harmful, and more to the learners without the luxury of living near accessible natives. These myths, or rather how widely they are spread, are leading the LE sites to worse and worse quality.
Talking to natives is an advantage, it can even be a huge advantage from B1 on. But it not necessary. And it is even not needed at the lower levels, sometimes even counterproductive for the beginners.
In the previous comment of yours, I resonated so much with:
Probably because there wasn't an industry of people having the brass neck to ask for €15 for dull small-talk.
Really, nowadays the obsession with talking with natives is leading beginners to flood the LE sites with low quality interactions (and the amount drives away the minority of the people capable of the higher quality interactions), and it feeds the people asking 15 euro for small talk, pretending it is awesome for you. And another result are the too slow beginners,wasting their time.
How about we promoted more healthy and more diverse options, such as "you can succeed without anyone else", or "textbooks are not evil, here is a list of those, that will prepare you well for the real stuff", or "the natives dubbing your tv series are just as native as the tutors"
It doesn't mean it's child's play because you also need to devise some ruse for making contact, otherwise you just seem like a weirdo. But it's a lot better than having few/no real-life opportunities. Also the older you get the fewer opportunities you get for 'random' encounters. I don't spend my time these days sitting in cafes or at youthful parties, encountering Mexicans called 'Hector' (I did this). Or French speakers from Ivory Coast or the Swahili people I chanced upon in the University library where I still have a valid card. So for people a bit further away from all that where else can they go but online exchanges?
And that's the rub. Some apps have cornered the market on providing a conduit for meetings. I think there are other opportunities, that are perhaps not quite as omnipresent. Like the small and much larger zoom discussions organised via Duolingo (as mentioned by Tommus elsewhere). I had a skype chat with someone I met on a discussion board and have carried on talking to this person on and off. iTalki and the like are just the mini-corporate face of all that.
I am amazed you were doing all that. But not only is that harder for people living in some locations, but it gets further complicated by the parasitic effect of English. People simply refuse to use their native languages often. I wish LE sites were a good way to prevent that, but we see the issues here. I like your point about the online LE opportunities that don't pass through Italki and similar sites. They are harder to find, which is both the problem (because I wasn't even aware of how many such places there were), and a blessing (they are not that visible or attractive for the harassers or not serious learners).
I wonder, could it be possible to have a LE site with only people at A2 or more? Of course it would be a bit more complicated, it would need to be paid for the extra effort, and let's not forget most language certification are pretty expensive. But I'd be excited to be part of a site, where both the level, and the real interest of the members would be checked. And it might even make non natives speaking together a valuable experience, people at the C levels are not harmful to each other, unlike when you listen to someone at a significantly lower level.
alaart wrote:If you can I'd recommend real life language exchange. They have given me much more in return, I made more friends and had greater experiences. I also learned quicker.
I've heard and read too many experiences of people, who went to such an exchange and faced the same issues as online. Only beginners present, switching to English (or the local language), and so on. But yes, I think it is a safer way as far as harassment and similar stuff goes. It's simply way too easy to behave totally inappropriately and without any repercussions online.
In Germany this kind of works well because we have a lot of migrants. It depends on the availability of your target language. Of course rarer languages are more difficult to find, but surprisingly if you find someone they are much more likely to be friendly and helpful and appreciate you learning their language much more.
Yes, that's exactly it. I've spent majority of my life in Prague. There is no shortage of immigrants in the absolute numbers. However, vast majority are natives of languages I am not interested in. And the people with native languages I am actually interested in are mostly not interested in Czech, they rely on English (they often don't even use the native language even if you are good at it, due to prejudices). Or the exceptions (such as the students doing the real medicine degree, the the anglophone one) are already so good and normally living their lives, that they have no need of LE.
Some ideas:
-go to public viewing places of soccer matches from your target country.
-Universities:
Just ask around, there are a lot of foreigners in various classes. I'm currently just asking if someone knows a Korean.
You hear different languages spoken in the cafeteria or the hallway. There are foreigner parties, language departments, culture events, sometimes there are lectures about certain countries.
-I attended events about human rights problems and political issues (Brazil, China etc.). Concerts of your target countries music. Restaurants. Culture institutes and groups (like Confucius institute, organization for cultural exchange between Germany and Japan etc.).
-If you meet one foreigner, ask them to introduce you to more of them. They usually have an intern group in the city and intern events, if you really are motivated you can come along and join them once in a while, and they usually are friendly and helpful and there are always people that need to improve the local language. I must admit that it also feels weird, because you are like the only non-member in a closed group, but it is the closest thing to immersion I know. If you are surrounded by Portuguese or Chinese speakers the whole event, it can be quite overwhelming but also enlightening.
-Speak to strangers that look foreign and ask them where they are from. You can force your luck if you go to tourist places or big train stations. Express train rides also have a high change of meeting someone from a foreign country.
I also went to events that didn't turn out to have foreigners. It's a bit of luck I guess.
These are good tips, but they are unfortunately not always practical. English has done a lot of damage there. The foreigners interact in English and even create a sort of paralell expat society (even if it is the not that great International Broken English, therefore not even valuable for English improvement. If I wanted it anyways). A lot of the non English events are also mainly monolingual in the local language. For example most such events about France (many of them backed up by the Institut Français, which is the AF in the city) don't really mix francophone and local people. It's mostly the locals, who are a sort of French Weeaboos
The last suggestion looks good, but such interactions don't always work. An example: a few years ago, I saw and heard a very confused French couple in the Prague metro. Confused exactly about where they wanted to go and how to get there. I was honestly trying to help, there was a construction in the metro, it was confusing. I offered my help and asked where they wanted to go in French (I was already C2, so no, it was not my fault). They looked at me confusedly, and asked in English or very slow French (not sure anymore), whether I was asking them "where are you from". It was very annoying. I was not interested, I was trying to help, and they treated me like an annoying worthless beginner with unintelligible French.
Really, the random encounters are hard to make work even under the "ideal" conditions.
I realize this whole kind of thinking might not be for everybody, and an app is just much more comfortable. But that is also the problem since the other people are also putting in less effort and are less engaged. On the contrary, searching for foreigners in your country you can be absolutely sure they are engaged into your language - otherwise they wouldn't have come here.
If you are not in your home country, or a country with little immigrants it can be tough.
Depends on the country, Germany is one of the luckier ones. Most foreigners in the Czech Republic couldn't care less about learning the language. Vast majority of the expats (=people from the richer countries) finds it bellow them to learn an inferior language of an unimportant country (they keep thinking it even if they've been living here for 20 years). And vast majority of the real immigrants (=people from equally rich or poorer countries) doesn't have too popular native languages.
In Japan I had a harder time finding exchanges (I searched for Chinese and Spanish speakers), but it worked to some extend offering English. I mainly searched on meetup, universities and foreigner groups - this was all pre-covid. I had to go to a different university, since my university didn't have many Chinese exchange students. In the events of the other university I found some Chinese students and a Chinese study club too, but in the end I was too busy to go there often and the study club was too hard for me (they were doing poetry in Chinese).
Well, now there are still some pandemic restrictions left, so there also are less foreigners everywhere. So maybe this is something for later. I recommend mixing in some of those real life experiences to the app-exchanges from time to time and see where it goes. I personally can't wait to reduce my dependency on language apps and meet real foreigners again.
That's interesting, and shows that the different regions offer different opportunities and challenges. If I offered English, it would be worthless anywhere in Europe as I am not a native (and the real natives are everywhere). But in a country like Japan, it could be very valuable anyways.
The universities note reminds me: my faculty tried to make an official language exchange seminar, oriented on medical language. However, they destroyed it by making it only English-Czech. It looked nice from their point of view, but they forgot that 99% of the foreigners were not native speakers and many even didn't have that good English (so who would be teaching what? ). The Czechs were often better at English than the teachers, and also needed other languages more. There were almost no Erasmus opportunities in the anglophone countries, but many in other languages, including native languages of the foreign students. But no, a Portuguese native would have to "teach" you bad English instead
Stefan wrote:I've said this in the past but I reckon it's better to find native people with similar interests as you and join them. Don't limit yourself to people on a LE site only interested in learning your language. Here is a list with 12500 public Discord servers in Spanish. You'll find everything from anime, to politics and philosophy. Then combine it with a proper teacher that can answer questions on the language that native speakers rarely consider (grammar).
This is great, thank you! The only catch: I wonder, whether we don't also destroy these places as we use them. The first few non natives will be ok, probably well accepted, and a real part of the community. But if too many come, especially at too levels, the natives may find it annoying and leave, to create new spaces that would be really theirs again. What is your experience with this?