Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby Cavesa » Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:22 am

Le Baron wrote:That said, it has to be appreciated that some people might not have quite as much opportunity to run into target language speakers in real life if they don't live near some metropolis. Some are more fortunate. I live near (previously lived in) a major city with a lot of diversity and a university that brings students from around the world, many who stay. It also houses several language and culture schools. So in that respect I can work less hard to find potential LE partners.


And that's why we need to get rid of the myths "you have to speak from day 1" or "you learn to speak only by speaking". They are harmful, and more to the learners without the luxury of living near accessible natives. These myths, or rather how widely they are spread, are leading the LE sites to worse and worse quality.

Talking to natives is an advantage, it can even be a huge advantage from B1 on. But it not necessary. And it is even not needed at the lower levels, sometimes even counterproductive for the beginners.

In the previous comment of yours, I resonated so much with:
Probably because there wasn't an industry of people having the brass neck to ask for €15 for dull small-talk.


Really, nowadays the obsession with talking with natives is leading beginners to flood the LE sites with low quality interactions (and the amount drives away the minority of the people capable of the higher quality interactions), and it feeds the people asking 15 euro for small talk, pretending it is awesome for you. And another result are the too slow beginners,wasting their time.

How about we promoted more healthy and more diverse options, such as "you can succeed without anyone else", or "textbooks are not evil, here is a list of those, that will prepare you well for the real stuff", or "the natives dubbing your tv series are just as native as the tutors" :-)

It doesn't mean it's child's play because you also need to devise some ruse for making contact, otherwise you just seem like a weirdo. But it's a lot better than having few/no real-life opportunities. Also the older you get the fewer opportunities you get for 'random' encounters. I don't spend my time these days sitting in cafes or at youthful parties, encountering Mexicans called 'Hector' (I did this). Or French speakers from Ivory Coast or the Swahili people I chanced upon in the University library where I still have a valid card. So for people a bit further away from all that where else can they go but online exchanges?

And that's the rub. Some apps have cornered the market on providing a conduit for meetings. I think there are other opportunities, that are perhaps not quite as omnipresent. Like the small and much larger zoom discussions organised via Duolingo (as mentioned by Tommus elsewhere). I had a skype chat with someone I met on a discussion board and have carried on talking to this person on and off. iTalki and the like are just the mini-corporate face of all that.


I am amazed you were doing all that. But not only is that harder for people living in some locations, but it gets further complicated by the parasitic effect of English. People simply refuse to use their native languages often. I wish LE sites were a good way to prevent that, but we see the issues here. I like your point about the online LE opportunities that don't pass through Italki and similar sites. They are harder to find, which is both the problem (because I wasn't even aware of how many such places there were), and a blessing (they are not that visible or attractive for the harassers or not serious learners).

I wonder, could it be possible to have a LE site with only people at A2 or more? Of course it would be a bit more complicated, it would need to be paid for the extra effort, and let's not forget most language certification are pretty expensive. But I'd be excited to be part of a site, where both the level, and the real interest of the members would be checked. And it might even make non natives speaking together a valuable experience, people at the C levels are not harmful to each other, unlike when you listen to someone at a significantly lower level.

alaart wrote:If you can I'd recommend real life language exchange. They have given me much more in return, I made more friends and had greater experiences. I also learned quicker.


I've heard and read too many experiences of people, who went to such an exchange and faced the same issues as online. Only beginners present, switching to English (or the local language), and so on. But yes, I think it is a safer way as far as harassment and similar stuff goes. It's simply way too easy to behave totally inappropriately and without any repercussions online.


In Germany this kind of works well because we have a lot of migrants. It depends on the availability of your target language. Of course rarer languages are more difficult to find, but surprisingly if you find someone they are much more likely to be friendly and helpful and appreciate you learning their language much more.

Yes, that's exactly it. I've spent majority of my life in Prague. There is no shortage of immigrants in the absolute numbers. However, vast majority are natives of languages I am not interested in. And the people with native languages I am actually interested in are mostly not interested in Czech, they rely on English (they often don't even use the native language even if you are good at it, due to prejudices). Or the exceptions (such as the students doing the real medicine degree, the the anglophone one) are already so good and normally living their lives, that they have no need of LE.

Some ideas:
-go to public viewing places of soccer matches from your target country.
-Universities:
Just ask around, there are a lot of foreigners in various classes. I'm currently just asking if someone knows a Korean.
You hear different languages spoken in the cafeteria or the hallway. There are foreigner parties, language departments, culture events, sometimes there are lectures about certain countries.
-I attended events about human rights problems and political issues (Brazil, China etc.). Concerts of your target countries music. Restaurants. Culture institutes and groups (like Confucius institute, organization for cultural exchange between Germany and Japan etc.).
-If you meet one foreigner, ask them to introduce you to more of them. They usually have an intern group in the city and intern events, if you really are motivated you can come along and join them once in a while, and they usually are friendly and helpful and there are always people that need to improve the local language. I must admit that it also feels weird, because you are like the only non-member in a closed group, but it is the closest thing to immersion I know. If you are surrounded by Portuguese or Chinese speakers the whole event, it can be quite overwhelming but also enlightening.
-Speak to strangers that look foreign and ask them where they are from. You can force your luck if you go to tourist places or big train stations. Express train rides also have a high change of meeting someone from a foreign country.

I also went to events that didn't turn out to have foreigners. It's a bit of luck I guess.


These are good tips, but they are unfortunately not always practical. English has done a lot of damage there. The foreigners interact in English and even create a sort of paralell expat society (even if it is the not that great International Broken English, therefore not even valuable for English improvement. If I wanted it anyways). A lot of the non English events are also mainly monolingual in the local language. For example most such events about France (many of them backed up by the Institut Français, which is the AF in the city) don't really mix francophone and local people. It's mostly the locals, who are a sort of French Weeaboos :-(

The last suggestion looks good, but such interactions don't always work. An example: a few years ago, I saw and heard a very confused French couple in the Prague metro. Confused exactly about where they wanted to go and how to get there. I was honestly trying to help, there was a construction in the metro, it was confusing. I offered my help and asked where they wanted to go in French (I was already C2, so no, it was not my fault). They looked at me confusedly, and asked in English or very slow French (not sure anymore), whether I was asking them "where are you from". It was very annoying. I was not interested, I was trying to help, and they treated me like an annoying worthless beginner with unintelligible French.

Really, the random encounters are hard to make work even under the "ideal" conditions. :-D

I realize this whole kind of thinking might not be for everybody, and an app is just much more comfortable. But that is also the problem since the other people are also putting in less effort and are less engaged. On the contrary, searching for foreigners in your country you can be absolutely sure they are engaged into your language - otherwise they wouldn't have come here.

If you are not in your home country, or a country with little immigrants it can be tough.

Depends on the country, Germany is one of the luckier ones. Most foreigners in the Czech Republic couldn't care less about learning the language. Vast majority of the expats (=people from the richer countries) finds it bellow them to learn an inferior language of an unimportant country (they keep thinking it even if they've been living here for 20 years). And vast majority of the real immigrants (=people from equally rich or poorer countries) doesn't have too popular native languages.


In Japan I had a harder time finding exchanges (I searched for Chinese and Spanish speakers), but it worked to some extend offering English. I mainly searched on meetup, universities and foreigner groups - this was all pre-covid. I had to go to a different university, since my university didn't have many Chinese exchange students. In the events of the other university I found some Chinese students and a Chinese study club too, but in the end I was too busy to go there often and the study club was too hard for me (they were doing poetry in Chinese).

Well, now there are still some pandemic restrictions left, so there also are less foreigners everywhere. So maybe this is something for later. I recommend mixing in some of those real life experiences to the app-exchanges from time to time and see where it goes. I personally can't wait to reduce my dependency on language apps and meet real foreigners again.


That's interesting, and shows that the different regions offer different opportunities and challenges. If I offered English, it would be worthless anywhere in Europe as I am not a native (and the real natives are everywhere). But in a country like Japan, it could be very valuable anyways.

The universities note reminds me: my faculty tried to make an official language exchange seminar, oriented on medical language. However, they destroyed it by making it only English-Czech. It looked nice from their point of view, but they forgot that 99% of the foreigners were not native speakers and many even didn't have that good English (so who would be teaching what? :-D). The Czechs were often better at English than the teachers, and also needed other languages more. There were almost no Erasmus opportunities in the anglophone countries, but many in other languages, including native languages of the foreign students. But no, a Portuguese native would have to "teach" you bad English instead :-D

Stefan wrote:I've said this in the past but I reckon it's better to find native people with similar interests as you and join them. Don't limit yourself to people on a LE site only interested in learning your language. Here is a list with 12500 public Discord servers in Spanish. You'll find everything from anime, to politics and philosophy. Then combine it with a proper teacher that can answer questions on the language that native speakers rarely consider (grammar).


This is great, thank you! The only catch: I wonder, whether we don't also destroy these places as we use them. The first few non natives will be ok, probably well accepted, and a real part of the community. But if too many come, especially at too levels, the natives may find it annoying and leave, to create new spaces that would be really theirs again. What is your experience with this?
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby rdearman » Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:49 pm

Today I bought coffee in London. I spoke to the Batista, he is French. I know because I asked about his accent the first day I went there. Over the last month I get a coffee twice a week, I speak to him in French, or use my limited Spanish with his colleague. (Hola!)

At lunch, I go to an Italian café where I chat with the guy about Portuguese, nobody speaks Italian! It is either Portuguese or Polish. But across the street there is a pizza place with a lovely young Italian girl who loves to chat. But the place is so busy we never really get a good conversation going.
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:53 pm

rdearman wrote:I spoke to the Batista...

Is he related to Fulgencio?
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby rdearman » Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:07 pm

Le Baron wrote:
rdearman wrote:I spoke to the Batista...

Is he related to Fulgencio?

Second cousin once removed.
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby greatSchism » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:25 am

Cavesa wrote:Yes, that's exactly it. I've spent majority of my life in Prague. There is no shortage of immigrants in the absolute numbers. However, vast majority are natives of languages I am not interested in. And the people with native languages I am actually interested in are mostly not interested in Czech, they rely on English (they often don't even use the native language even if you are good at it, due to prejudices). Or the exceptions (such as the students doing the real medicine degree, the the anglophone one) are already so good and normally living their lives, that they have no need of LE.


When I was in college I studied in Hungary for 1 year and I did not learn any more of the language than the very basics. Mainly because all of my classes were in English, all of my classmates spoke English, and the likelihood I was going to use it again was nil. I wish that I had spent more time learning the language, but I just wasn't interested at that time.
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:11 am

rdearman wrote:Today I bought coffee in London. I spoke to the Batista, he is French. I know because I asked about his accent the first day I went there. Over the last month I get a coffee twice a week, I speak to him in French, or use my limited Spanish with his colleague. (Hola!)

At lunch, I go to an Italian café where I chat with the guy about Portuguese, nobody speaks Italian! It is either Portuguese or Polish. But across the street there is a pizza place with a lovely young Italian girl who loves to chat. But the place is so busy we never really get a good conversation going.


Yes, but this is very location dependent. It's awesome, that some people can do that. But it is simply too much of a fairy tale for the rest of us.

When people from these countries come to the worse countries, like the Czech Republic, they usually don't make coffees, they are managers and token foreigners doing desk jobs. The coffees are made by people with much less attractive native languages for most learners.

In France, I was again out of luck in this sense, because I was in a small town near the borders. Most people there (including tons of natives of mostly not too attractive languages for me) were really nothing any normal person, and especially a young woman, would like to socialise with. And even those actually working would be near impossible to meet. Small towns are a stupid hell, where even cafés, libraries, and shops close at the same time as everything else. The only way to live there and meet people a bit is basically to be unemployed.

And now in a middle sized town in Belgium, it is better (there are other issues). On top of French, I get to use Italian quite often, because the Italians do various jobs from the pizzas up to research at university. That's awesome! If I wanted to learn Flemish, I would be out of luck though, Wallonie and Flanders are simply not one country in anything but formalities. I could practice a lot of Arabic, or Turkish, if I wanted. But there are also things like two Italian radio channels, a Turkish one, a partially Hebrew one available in a different part of Belgium, etc.

But in any case, the interaction with people just randomly doing their jobs are a bit overrated, as you say. The people usually have very little time, and only rather repetitive short interactions are not worth much. Encountering people in a different manner is harder. Not impossible, stuff like cultural events or collective hobbies can help. All that was destroyed during covid.

So, the digital options, such as exchange apps, would be a good alternative, or at least a supplemental partial solution, if only there weren't so many huge issues with them.

greatSchism wrote:When I was in college I studied in Hungary for 1 year and I did not learn any more of the language than the very basics. Mainly because all of my classes were in English, all of my classmates spoke English, and the likelihood I was going to use it again was nil. I wish that I had spent more time learning the language, but I just wasn't interested at that time.


Yes, that's the problem. Students abroad for a year should have the obligation to learn the local language, ideally to at least B1 before even coming to the country. If you are so unmotivated to learn it, then you clearly don't value the country, culture, and your opportunity enough to deserve it. No offense meant to you in particular, it is a huge flaw in the system.

Your exchange stay mostly failed. I somehow doubt the Hungarian university's gold mine (that's what the classes in English are in central europe, nothing more) was such a unique study opportunity by itself. You had zero experience with the local culture, people, real classes. You were in a separate bubble. Any person saying "I am not interested" during such an opportunity should simply be kicked out and demanded to return any money support.
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby greatSchism » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:36 pm

Cavesa wrote:Yes, that's the problem. Students abroad for a year should have the obligation to learn the local language, ideally to at least B1 before even coming to the country. If you are so unmotivated to learn it, then you clearly don't value the country, culture, and your opportunity enough to deserve it. No offense meant to you, in particular, it is a huge flaw in the system.

Your exchange stay mostly failed. I somehow doubt the Hungarian university's gold mine (that's what the classes in English are in central Europe, nothing more) was such a unique study opportunity by itself. You had zero experience with the local culture, people, real classes. You were in a separate bubble. Any person saying "I am not interested" during such an opportunity should simply be kicked out and demanded to return any money support.



As far as studying abroad, your experience will really depend on your goals, and how you personally define them. In my case, I was not there to specifically learn the language, I was there to study science, and learn about the culture. We had 2 semesters of Hungarian, but that is hardly enough. I made friends with the locals, who I am still friends with today. But, their ability to speak English was superior to that of my Hungarian, so all of the conversations were in English. Also prior to arriving in the country, at that time, it was not easy to find material beyond a basic travel phrasebook, outside of a large university. Google and Amazon did not exist. Consequently, learning the language prior to arriving in the country was not realistic, unless you were specifically studying Hungarian as a major. The internet was in its infancy, most people didn't own a cellphone. While there was a university computer room, not many people had their own computer, and those who had personal computers were most likely not connected to the internet.

You have to consider a few things:

1. Smaller American universities usually do not offer many language classes outside of Spanish, French, or German.
2. Many European Universities market themselves to international students looking to study medicine/sciences. 50% of the students were foreign, so you were with 1000's of people who spoke English very well.
3. We were paying with our own money.
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:35 pm

greatSchism wrote:As far as studying abroad, your experience will really depend on your goals, and how you personally define them. In my case, I was not there to specifically learn the language, I was there to study science, and learn about the culture. We had 2 semesters of Hungarian, but that is hardly enough. I made friends with the locals, who I am still friends with today. But, their ability to speak English was superior to that of my Hungarian, so all of the conversations were in English. Also prior to arriving in the country, at that time, it was not easy to find material beyond a basic travel phrasebook, outside of a large university. Google and Amazon did not exist. Consequently, learning the language prior to arriving in the country was not realistic, unless you were specifically studying Hungarian as a major. The internet was in its infancy, most people didn't own a cellphone. While there was a university computer room, not many people had their own computer, and those who had personal computers were most likely not connected to the internet.

You have to consider a few things:

1. Smaller American universities usually do not offer many language classes outside of Spanish, French, or German.
2. Many European Universities market themselves to international students looking to study medicine/sciences. 50% of the students were foreign, so you were with 1000's of people who spoke English very well.
3. We were paying with our own money.


Yes, it depends on your goals, and some goals are simply more appropriate and some less. Just the too common "English bubble" is a huge problem of the exchange stays, it is seriously damaging the whole idea of student exchanges. You cannot really learn much about the culture without speaking the language at at least intermediate level. Not speaking it prevents your from fully integrating. And don't get me wrong, I don't really mean culture in the narrow sense of "going to cultural events", but in the broader sense of experiencing how the locals live, communicate, perceive stuff. And even the science tends to be on two different levels, when the professors teach in their native language and in English.

But I totally get your argument about the resources, if it was some long time ago. You're right that it would be rather hard without all the things we have within reach now. But today's students arriving without B1 in the local language have no excuse imho.

1.Neither do the european ones, but a university student anywhere is supposed to be good at self teaching.

2.Yes, because that's how they get a lot of money. They get the failed students from other countries, they teach easier classes in English, affected by the teachers' English skills, treat the English speaking students much kinder than the locals (because they see them as the money source, we were just trash for them), and have lower standards for them (again, to get the money). Being in such a class means you don't get to know anything about the local culture, country, society, or even the real education at the university.

3.Yes, that's the difference between the americans, and the europeans. The europeans on Erasmus should be held to a higher standard, because they get support the americans don't get, that's a valid point.
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby greatSchism » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:09 am

Cavesa wrote:
Yes, it depends on your goals, and some goals are simply more appropriate and some less. Just the too common "English bubble" is a huge problem of the exchange stays, it is seriously damaging the whole idea of student exchanges. You cannot really learn much about the culture without speaking the language at at least intermediate level. Not speaking it prevents your from fully integrating. And don't get me wrong, I don't really mean culture in the narrow sense of "going to cultural events", but in the broader sense of experiencing how the locals live, communicate, perceive stuff. And even the science tends to be on two different levels, when the professors teach in their native language and in English.


I agree that people have a better understanding of the culture if they are fully integrating into the culture, and can speak the language. In the US, "student exchanges", are high school students who normally have studied the language for several years before going to live abroad. They are sent live with a native host family where they only speak the language. "Study abroad programs", on the other hand, are sponsored by universities and the requirements vary greatly with the university. Yes, some programs are merely an extended European vacation. The phenomenon of students living in a "bubble" is entirely natural. In a foreign country, groups of people create their own communities and are bonded by a common language.


2.Yes, because that's how they get a lot of money. They get the failed students from other countries, they teach easier classes in English, affected by the teachers' English skills, treat the English speaking students much kinder than the locals (because they see them as the money source, we were just trash for them), and have lower standards for them (again, to get the money). Being in such a class means you don't get to know anything about the local culture, country, society, or even the real education at the university.


It is 100% about money. This is not a big surprise. "we were just trash for them", what do you mean?
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Re: Are "language exchange" apps worth the effort?

Postby JonathanOl » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:57 am

My personal experience:
I've tried many language exchange apps too (Tandem, HelloTalk, Speaky, etc.), I think HelloTalk and Tandem are a little bit better compared to other platforms.
HelloTalk - I feel like most people are more "serious language learners" there, so if you're lucky enough you'll be able to find friends there that speak your target language (I made a few friends there that we stayed connected even after I "finished" learning my target language).
Tandem - most people are less "serious language learners", BUT most people there are more active compared to HelloTalk.
So, I would use both of them and try my luck.
But, most people in these platforms are not very active or not serious enough, so just prepare yourself to that and remember that most of the messages you'll be sending will lead to nowhere.
Also, language exchange apps are not something you must do in order to achieve fluency, for example - in French I just couldn't find good partners in these apps, but I still found other methods to achieve speaking fluency, so even if you decide not to use these apps, don't feel too bad about it and keep learning using other methods.
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