German vs. Dutch
-
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:31 pm
- Languages: Bulgarian (N)
Spanish (B2)
German (Beginner)
Turkish (Beginner)
German vs. Dutch
So, I’m currently learning German and Dutch at the same time. Before doing so, I researched both just because to me they looked way too similar. In particular the vocabulary seemed to be 85-90% identical with some changes of courses due to the consonant shift in German. My question might be a little offensive but… why a lot of Dutch people continue trying to deny the obvious connection with German and instead pretend that English is closer??! Gesellschaft vs Geselschap / Essen vs Eten…. The resemblance with German is much stronger, even phonology wise
0 x
-
- Black Belt - 1st Dan
- Posts: 1987
- Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:26 am
- Languages: English (native), French & German (learning).
- Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... &start=200
- x 4077
Re: German vs. Dutch
Perhaps the similarities to English are more apparant to many Dutch people because English is so widely taught in the Dutch education system?antnvchv wrote:So, I’m currently learning German and Dutch at the same time. Before doing so, I researched both just because to me they looked way too similar. In particular the vocabulary seemed to be 85-90% identical with some changes of courses due to the consonant shift in German. My question might be a little offensive but… why a lot of Dutch people continue trying to deny the obvious connection with German and instead pretend that English is closer??! Gesellschaft vs Geselschap / Essen vs Eten…. The resemblance with German is much stronger, even phonology wise
An article that might interest you is: Mutual intelligibility between closely related languages in Europe
2 x
-
- Green Belt
- Posts: 470
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:16 pm
- Location: Germany
- Languages: English, Urdu, and German
- x 578
Re: German vs. Dutch
German and English also have similarities. It is the same thing
5 + 3 = 3+ 5
5 + 3 = 3+ 5
2 x
- tungemål
- Blue Belt
- Posts: 949
- Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:56 pm
- Location: Norway
- Languages: Norwegian (N)
English, German, Spanish, Japanese, Dutch, Polish - Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17672
- x 2192
Re: German vs. Dutch
I agree with you - Dutch is really close to German both in word order grammar and vocabulary. Don't know if the Dutch would deny that?
However, you can argue for a closer connection with English if you look at the core germanic vocabulary. It's interesting to compare Norwegian, English, Dutch and German with regard to the sound shifts. In short, German, English and Dutch underwent a vowel shift, and only German underwent a consonant shift as well. For the words below the Dutch and the English words are almost exactly the same. Since Norwegian didn't go through the same shifts, we can for this comparison regard Norwegian as the "original".
vowel shift:
NOR....ENG....DUTCH....GERMAN
hus.....house.....huis.......haus
is.........ice.........ijs...........eis
consonant shift in German:
NOR....ENG....DUTCH....GERMAN
skip.....ship.....schip........schiff
ut........out........uit..........aus
ete......eat.......eten........essen
However, you can argue for a closer connection with English if you look at the core germanic vocabulary. It's interesting to compare Norwegian, English, Dutch and German with regard to the sound shifts. In short, German, English and Dutch underwent a vowel shift, and only German underwent a consonant shift as well. For the words below the Dutch and the English words are almost exactly the same. Since Norwegian didn't go through the same shifts, we can for this comparison regard Norwegian as the "original".
vowel shift:
NOR....ENG....DUTCH....GERMAN
hus.....house.....huis.......haus
is.........ice.........ijs...........eis
consonant shift in German:
NOR....ENG....DUTCH....GERMAN
skip.....ship.....schip........schiff
ut........out........uit..........aus
ete......eat.......eten........essen
Last edited by tungemål on Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
7 x
- einzelne
- Blue Belt
- Posts: 804
- Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:33 pm
- Languages: Russan (N), English (Working knowledge), French (Reading), German (Reading), Italian (Reading on Kindle)
- x 2884
Re: German vs. Dutch
antnvchv wrote:why a lot of Dutch people continue trying to deny the obvious connection with German and instead pretend that English is closer??!
hum, "Geef me min fiets!" — you cannot ask it from the English:)
1 x
-
- Black Belt - 3rd Dan
- Posts: 3526
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
- Location: Scotland
- Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc - x 8793
- Contact:
Re: German vs. Dutch
antnvchv wrote:why a lot of Dutch people continue trying to deny the obvious connection with German and instead pretend that English is closer??!
Because their language is always being compared to German by others, which makes "not German" a defining part of their linguistic identity.
This happens all over the place -- Corsican is closer to Italian than many of the dialects of Italy, but it's so common for them to be told their language is "just a dialect of Italian" that they tend to exaggerate the differences.
The same thing goes for identities that aren't tied to language. Us Scots are constantly faced with being told that Scotland is part of England that "not English" becomes a major component of our identity. This is often mistaken for being anti-English, when it's just defence of self-identity.
4 x
- tungemål
- Blue Belt
- Posts: 949
- Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:56 pm
- Location: Norway
- Languages: Norwegian (N)
English, German, Spanish, Japanese, Dutch, Polish - Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17672
- x 2192
Re: German vs. Dutch
Cainntear wrote:Because their language is always being compared to German by others, which makes "not German" a defining part of their linguistic identity.
Good point and psychological insight. Undoubtedly true. Now we only need the view from a dutch member. Or from Le Baron when he's back from his trip to the cottage.
1 x
- Le Baron
- Black Belt - 3rd Dan
- Posts: 3578
- Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
- Location: Koude kikkerland
- Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili. - Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
- x 9564
Re: German vs. Dutch
It depends where you are. Along the border the low-German that is obviously the basis of Dutch is more prominent in the way people speak there and no-one denies the similarity. However this is by far not the case in Friesland.
However the fact is that Dutch is not Hochdeutsch it is a Low Franconian language. In so many cases the cognates you think make them the same turn out to be false friends and many are just completely different words. This is why you can't just alter a few Dutch endings then put on a Berlin accent and claim to be speaking German. It doesn't work. German TV programmes are subtitled here.
Dutch really does have more of a relationship with older forms of English. There are many cognate words which are much closer in form and sometimes exact spelling (like e.g. water). But then you have things like bevor* in German where Dutch has voor. There's no exact match in either direction and no point in looking for one. Dutch isn't English, but it isn't German either.
* Okay I cheated.
However the fact is that Dutch is not Hochdeutsch it is a Low Franconian language. In so many cases the cognates you think make them the same turn out to be false friends and many are just completely different words. This is why you can't just alter a few Dutch endings then put on a Berlin accent and claim to be speaking German. It doesn't work. German TV programmes are subtitled here.
Dutch really does have more of a relationship with older forms of English. There are many cognate words which are much closer in form and sometimes exact spelling (like e.g. water). But then you have things like bevor* in German where Dutch has voor. There's no exact match in either direction and no point in looking for one. Dutch isn't English, but it isn't German either.
* Okay I cheated.
4 x
Pedantry is properly the over-rating of any kind of knowledge we pretend to.
- Jonathan Swift
- Jonathan Swift
- Tristano
- Blue Belt
- Posts: 640
- Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:11 am
- Location: The Netherlands
- Languages: Native: Italian
Speaks: English, Dutch, French, Spanish
Understands but not yet speaks: Romanian
Studies: German
Can't wait to put his hands on: Scandinavian languages, Slavic languages, Turkish, Arabic and other stuff - Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5141
- x 1015
Re: German vs. Dutch
antnvchv wrote:why a lot of Dutch people continue trying to deny the obvious connection with German and instead pretend that English is closer??!
They don't. Still for the Dutch is learning English easier than learning German (1 article vs 3, 0 noun cases vs 4, they're more exposed to English than to German). Most Dutch can read German and understand to a similar extent that an Italian can understand written French. Most Dutch can't understand spoken German (unless they studied it at school and often also despite of it).
5 x
Return to “General Language Discussion”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests