Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

General discussion about learning languages
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Xenops
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Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby Xenops » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:56 pm

As the title says--what things do you think about before starting a language?

For me, some considerations are:

1. Are there ample learning resources with audio?
2. Is the country of origin a place I would like to visit, or feel safe visiting?
3. Can I find media in the language?
4. What level do I hope to achieve (A level, B level, C?)
5. Is the language endangered, and could go extinct before I reach target level?

So how about you? :)
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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby jeffers » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:16 pm

I'm totally curious what language meets criterion 5, but which also has resources to learn. The only scenario I can imagine is if you're learning from the last few speakers who are very old.

For me, I haven't got any real criteria, and have learned my different languages for wildly different reasons. In chronological order:
1. Hindi: because I was living in the country and had to learn it in school. However, the more contact I had with India the more my respect for the language and culture have grown, along with my desire to learn it.
2. Spanish: had to learn it in middle school in New York. I never did any work and failed 10 out of 12 quarters. Never looked at it again.
3. Ancient Greek: I had to take a language in university, and they didn't offer Hindi, so I settled on ancient Greek as a means to read the New Testament in its original language, and because I always like Greek myths as a kid.
4. Hebrew: because I was studying theology for a master's degree and it was required. Unfortunately, this has been 95% forgotten.
5. German: while studying Greek, Hebrew and Hindi, I was constantly jealous of the number of learning resources available in bookstores for modern European languages. So when I finished seminary I decided to start learning German. Besides the availability of resources, my family heritage in German: my mother spoke only German until she went to school, and my father's parents also spoke German. In addition, German is very useful for studying theology, philosophy and even Indian history, so it seemed quite useful if I were to go on and do more academic study. My recent interest in studying German is because I was anticipating a family get-together with my sister and some distant German relatives in Germany. The pandemic has put that on hold, and my German studies are temporarily on hold as well.
6. French: I had never been interested in learning French, but when my son had to study it in school it was the one subject for which I could not help him with homework. In addition, he was struggling with it, so I started learning in order to help him. In the end he didn't do very well, but it has become my strongest foreign language and the one I spend the most time with.
7. Sanskrit: I picked this up because I was heading to India for a summer to spend time with a friend who was taking Sanskrit lessons at the Landour Language School in the Himalayas. At the time Assimil's Sanskrit course had just been published, and so 90% of my motivation to learn it was because I was excited by the textbook! However, when I got to India I dropped the Sanskrit after two lessons so I could concentrate more on Hindi lessons.

The languages I have kept up out of those 7 are Hindi, German, ancient Greek and French. The common factors that have kept me learning them would be:
1. Interest in the culture,
2. Enjoyable resources as well as interesting media for the modern languages,
3. Trips abroad (for the modern languages). I think this is one of the strongest factors for motivating me nowadays: any time I travel to a target language country I work really hard on that language before the trip.
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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby RyanSmallwood » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:40 pm

Usually I consider how different it is from the languages I already know and what materials there are for it, and how early I can start using native media or beginner resources that are informative and enjoyable, and consider how much study time it would take versus how much interesting media there is. Audiobooks and translations to use for Listening-Reading are a big factor.

So as an example, dabbling in different dialects of Middle English and Early Middle English I don't have any reservations about whenever I want to read. There's not a huge amount of audiobooks compared to modern languages, but there's a good amount for reconstructed readings of historical languages and they’re not too far from Modern English, so I can do Listening-Reading of interesting literature right away.

Mandarin is sort of the big distant language project I'm studying. Its a much bigger study investment, but the study materials make it very easy to incorporate it into my routine, there's an absurd selection of audiobooks and translations, and a seemingly endless amount of interesting stuff to read and listen to. So its a commitment of many years, but the study is very enjoyable so the amount of time doesn't matter very much.

Cantonese is one I tried to learn early on, and while there's lots of interesting content like movies, television shows, and radio dramas I'm interested in, the study materials are not as good as I'd like. But once I get into a comfortable level in Mandarin, it will probably be a lot more possible to learn Cantonese, because I'll be able to access the native materials more easily, so I'm hoping I will be able to study it next.
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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby iguanamon » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:39 pm

Hmmm, going through the OP's list:
1. Are there ample learning resources with audio?
Minority and Less Commonly Studied Languages (LCSL) most often do not have ample resources for learning, as exist for bigger languages. When I learned Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol, there were two courses commercially available for English-speakers. One was barely more than an overview. The other was more thorough. Both had audio, but not over an hour's worth. When I learned Haitian Creole I had a DLI Basic Course with some usable audio, though most would've been un-listenable to most learners. I did have a thirty lesson Pimsleur course which packed a lot of usefulness into its small size. For Lesser Antilles Kwéyòl, I had a coursebook and some folktales along with a native-speaker for help. No audio for the coursebook or folktales. Fortunately for both Ladino and Kwéyòl, they are phonetic languages and both are related to other languages I already spoke. I didn't miss/need the audio.
2. Is the country of origin a place I would like to visit, or feel safe visiting?
I learned Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles Kwéyòl because they are spoken where I live and regionally. Right now, to visit Haiti is not really a good idea. Gangs control the streets in Port au Prince and other urban areas. Political instability after the President was assassinated. Major earthquake in the southern region leaving death and destruction in its wake... not too mention a raging pandemic. Still, I manage to run into speakers from time to time here.

There is no country to visit where Ladino is a majority language. Speakers are spread all over the globe. Israel and Turkey have a community of speakers but not a large community. There are only about 70,000 native-speakers at present. There is a vibrant and functioning online community with which to engage.

3. Can I find media in the language?
I can find media for all of my LCSL languages except Kwéyòl. It isn't what learners of big languages have- no netflix, no series, no films to speak of, no rock music but plenty of native music and no science fiction or fantasy literature, but literature exists.

Anyone who is learning a minority or LCSL, needs to adjust their expectations for what media is available in them. I love reading about Haitian Culture, but I am not going to find the same genres of literature that I like in my native or other languages. Those simply do not exist. What does exist is certainly worthwhile, only not in a conventional western mindset.

4. What level do I hope to achieve (A level, B level, C?)
If I decided to learn a next LCSL, say Sranan Tongo or Tetuan, I would just want to be conversational. That was all I wanted to be with Lesser Antilles Kwéyòl.

5. Is the language endangered, and could go extinct before I reach target level?
Well, Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol could go extinct in a couple of decades as far as native-speakers go.

I have learned languages that are here in the Americas and the Caribbean where I have a reasonable chance of running into people who speak them. Spanish is ubiquitous here. I have traveled in Brazil, Portugal and Spain. Traveling in Spain made me want to learn Catalan... which I am doing now. I know people who speak German who live here... but of course they speak great English. I may want to learn Palestinian Arabic someday. There is a small but significant community of speakers here with whom I could interact. Russian, Chinese, and Japanese basic conversational ability could be useful for travel in the future.

At this point, I don't have to have a reason to learn a language... but I do have to have a reason to invest the intellectual capital to learn it to a high (C) level. It takes a lot of both time and effort to do that. I know.

I've already learned the languages for which I have been highly motivated to learn. For those who are more on the beginning end of the spectrum, I can say that motivation is critical. Lack of desire is one of the biggest impediments to learning a language. I've seen learners here who try to learn a language without a burning desire to do so. The result is that they don't usually pursue their study to a high level. YMMV

To sum up, I don't find the availability of learning materials to be a hindrance as long as there is something- some kind of basic course and some kind of text. Audio is helpful sure, even if it's just the Bible.
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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby Asarena » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:08 pm

I guess for me it would be something like this:
1. Does the language interest me?
Can I see myself learning the language? Do I like how it sounds? Do I think I'll enjoy learning it?
2. Does the language have a lot of media for me to potentially enjoy?
In the case of Korean, I already liked a lot of Korean music and shows before I ever even thought about learning Korean. For Russian, I found music and shows that interested me after I began learning. It's also nice to be able to find books to read as well. I think it would be difficult for me to learn a language if I couldn't find any media to enjoy.
3. Are there good resources available for the language, especially ones with audio?
At least some of the good resources should have audio. A big plus is if the language has an active community of native speakers on Forvo. When it comes to Russian and Korean, my requests for Russian pronunciations are always filled faster than my requests for Korean pronunciations. Some of the Korean requests never get filled. I assume there are just more Russian speakers on the site.
4. Would I like to visit the country/countries where the language is spoken?
Who knows whether I'll actually travel to a country that speaks the language, but it would be nice if I could.
5. Am I interested in the culture/history of the country/countries where the language is spoken?
I like learning about history and culture, so if I can learn about them while also learning the language then that's even better!
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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby nooj » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:23 pm

For me:

1) Am I friends with or do I know well a speaker of this language, or if it's a random stranger, do I have the assurance that this person will help me assiduously with the language? Answer my questions, point out errors etc.

2) What learning resources are there for the beginner. I don't necessarily mean audiovisual content (tv or movies). I mean what is there that I can use to learn?

And a related point to do with 'learning', is there a big fat comprehensive grammar of said language? I get extremely frustrated if available resources don't go in-depth enough. If a language has a good enough written grammar, I might just learn it even if it doesn't meet condition 1).

That's pretty much the two most important things for me. However I also occasionally learn language's that don't meet 1) or 2), and then other factors come into play.
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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby tiia » Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:31 am

I hardly ever had to choose between two languages. And so far I had to do it only twice: in school between Latin and French and after university between Swedish and Russian (after deciding that all the other languages offered were less interesting than those two.) For me the interest may come automatically for whatever reason. However, I prefer a script based on letters rather than symbols. I may learn another script (cyrillic?) at some point in my life, but so far that hasn't happend.
The accessibility of learning material may be another factor to be considered, but so far it has never been a limiting factor.

Another criteria that has not come up yet is that I evaluate the situation of my other languages. I have made the mistake of starting a new language too soon after another and it has not ended up well.
At what level are my other languages?
How much time do I need for them during the week?
Have I enough time for yet another language? (And do I really have the motivation to study the new language for at least two years?)
Will I be able to maintain the other languages, if I have to reduce the time available for them?

Currently this is holding me (a bit) back from starting a new language, though there is one that appears quite interesting at the moment.
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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby sporedandroid » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:35 am

Have you have a long lasting interest?

I was very interested in Icelandic when I originally learned it. I was 14, so I couldn’t really keep up with it. That made me lose interest in Icelandic and language learning in general. When I got motivated to learn languages again, I also got motivated to learn Icelandic again. I’m still trying to figure out if I’m truly interested or just nostalgic.

With Hebrew I sort of just got an interest in Jewish culture in general. Maybe Yiddish would have been a better choice, but I was pretty burned out by obscure languages. I went with Modern Hebrew out of convenience. The first time I tried it I found it too overwhelming and I was sort of lukewarm about it. I got interested again a few years later. Since I was still interested I decided to give it a shot again.

What is less important is practicality. I’ve been “interested” in learning French because it’s practical and I’ve enjoyed a few French films. I’ve also been interested in German because it’s practical and similar to languages I’m interested in. I also once dabbled in Turkish because I might travel to Turkey. Didn’t end up going. I also don’t see myself keeping up with Turkish in the future. So I was never truly motivated to really study.

One language I could possibly be interested in is Finnish. So far I’ve been mainly interested in Finnish music. I haven’t really had the urge to truly study Finnish. I occasionally watch some Finnish videos for learners that have bilingual subtitles. I kind of pick up some high frequency vocabulary and sort of get used to the sentence structure. If I really do feel like studying Finnish one day I hope this dabbling helps me get started.

How much do you like the culture and the media?

Iceland got a lot of points for this. I was really into Icelandic music when I was a teen. I also seem to enjoy the few Icelandic movies that I’ve seen. There isn’t a lot of media available, but it seems like I like a lot of it. I still don’t know if the quality will make up for the quantity. I also enjoy traveling to Iceland. One thing that I liked is that I could blend in when I wanted to. Maybe due to the way I dress and move. Who knows… I was into Iceland before I actually visited Iceland, so it’s not just that. I also agree with a lot of Nordic values in general.

With Hebrew I’m not as sure. I love listening to music in general, so I quickly found music I like in Hebrew. It does seem like listening to music helps me pick up a language more easily. Probably because I listen to a lot of music in general. It’s not my only motivator. If it was I’d be C2 in Finnish by now. I’m definitely not, but I have picked up a lot of Finnish. Especially because it’s non-Indo European and I wasn’t even trying to learn it.

Right now I’m not entirely sure if I’ll enjoy a lot of media in Hebrew. It just seems like there’s a lot of cultural references that fly over my head. It might also be due to my level being too low to truly get into anything. I still have to use a lot of my brain power to understand what they’re saying. I’ve never actually been to Israel, so I don’t really know how much I like the people there or how I’d fit in. I kind of get the sense that I don’t, but it could just be because I’m intermediate right now. There’s also quite a few Israeli values I don’t really agree with.

I did start learning Modern Hebrew not feeling as connected to it compared to Icelandic. I learn Modern Hebrew because I feel connected to Israel. I didn’t learn Icelandic because I felt connected to Iceland either. I can’t say it wasn’t a bonus when I did feel a connection. I do think I’m idealizing Icelandic because I didn’t actually get to a super high level.

How similar is it to other languages you’re interested in?

This is another thing Icelandic gets a lot of points for. I’m interested in other Nordic languages and Germanic languages in general. This can’t be my sole motivator because if it was I’d probably be more motivated to learn German.

Hebrew is a bit trickier. I think Modern Hebrew is a good way for me to learn Biblical Hebrew. It will just feel a lot more natural. There isn’t a whole lot of Semitic languages. If I was truly interested in Arabic I probably would have just gone with Arabic.

This is one big negative Finnish has over Icelandic. Finnish isn’t even indo-european. It will be a lot harder to get started with it. I sort languages that are related to Finnish interesting, but it’s not as interesting to me as the Germanic languages.


Right now I still have a lot of time to decide whether I want to learn Icelandic or not. For now I’m deciding not to since it seems like it competes a lot with Hebrew in my head. I want to do 100% in both. I can’t actually do that. So I’ll have to wait until I’m at a higher level in Hebrew. I’m still deciding which level that will be.
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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:03 pm

Somewhere else, I wrote:
I had to study English in school, but every language after that has been my own choice. I started learning German in 7th grade (I liked the sound of it, had heard it a lot on TV and so on), Spanish and French in high school - Spanish because I really wanted to learn it, and French a few years later because I figured it would be close to Spanish. Classical Greek because I was taking my first serious steps on the road to polyglottery... Irish because of the culture. And another dozen languages from pure interest.


Regarding Xenops' five factors, all or none could apply.
For Classical Greek, we didn't have audio. But in general, I prefer to have access to some audio resources.
A place I would like to visit? Sometimes that applies, but as regulars know, nowadays I hate travelling. And teleporting hasn't really taken off. :(
Media in the language is definitely an important factor. Literature, radio, movies...
Levels are irrelevant. I've never considered taking tests. "Better than yesterday" is enough.
It's not important if the language is endangered or not - I don't think I've ever thought about it, but I see how choosing an endangered language could pose some difficulties, e.g. resource mining.
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Something that wasn't mentioned: One day speaking the language? It has been a factor before. Today, not.

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Re: Factors You Consider Before Starting a New Language?

Postby devilyoudont » Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:09 pm

My list:

1) Does it have a sizeable community of speakers in my city? If no, is there a way to interact with this language online in a meaningful way?
2) Does it release books or films at least yearly?
3) If it fails on the above: is it extremely easy?
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