Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

[Cavesa]

I'm going to take a slightly different spin on this. For minority languages, I would argue it is detrimental. However, it's not detrimental to your language abilities as much as it is to the literary culture of the language itself. I'm speaking solely from my experience with Irish, so please take this all with a grain of salt.

However, what I've seen is that translations get all the media attention when they're released. There's little-to-no press hype, outside of the publishing houses, for books that are written only in Irish. But every Irish language magazine/newspaper, and sometimes even the English ones, pick up on when Irish translations are planned, especially if it's a very well known book (the Irish translation of Game of Thrones is one I'm thinking of). I think this itself is detrimental to the literary culture, as it takes away influence that those who are developing said culture could have. When all the focus is to appeal to the mass of English speakers who want to read the latest English book in Irish (or classics, as Matilda is set to be translated this year), it harms the promotion of Irish books. It also promotes the outside literary culture over the development of the native Irish culture, and how people are interacting with Irish themes in Irish. Instead, we just get hyped about reading the same books we've read in English, dealing with English themes, etc. and it comes at the expense of Irish language literature itself.

So I try to not read translations, especially if it's a book that's come from English. I'd be more willing to read something like the book Eoin P. Ó Murchú translated from Scottish Gaelic to Irish, or something from Basque, etc., though I still tend to prefer literature that was written in Irish at first (and the older the better as the Irish is much richer)

I'd say the translations of the popular stuff are actually crucial for keeping the languages really alive. Yes, it is wrong that the original books in the language don't get enough hype and praise, and marketing. I agree. And yes, the translated literature can affect the culture "too much". But there are two huge reasons, why translations are important, especially the popular ones.

1.The key to keeping a smaller language alive are the kids and teens. They need to form a strong relationship to the language. If they cannot read a popular work in it, but only stuff they find "boring", "too intellectual", "not cool", they won't form this relationship. Giving them what they want is important for keeping them not only interested, but for keeping Irish (or any language in a similar situation) seen as a real tool that improves your life. Not as a historical residue, that is just taught at schools (because adults enforcing this are dumb and old fashioned), and is dead as soon as you leave the classroom. That's what the Game of Thrones translation does. It can and should lead them to further exploring the Irish bookshelves in the store or a library, sure. But it cannot be replaced by something totally unknown.

2.While it seems very noble to strive for keeping the individual traditions alive, we are all part of a bigger european, euroamerican, and global culture. Sure, you can take protecting your culture and keeping it authentic and "clean" very seriously and limit the blows from the outside. But the price is turning the region and its people into a sort of a museum. The Song of Ice and Fire is a part of our shared global culture now. Why create artificial divisions between us? And also further deepen the perception of some languages/cultures as superior and some inferior? Because even if you could forbid publishing translated GoT, it wouldn't generate more books in Irish, it wouldn't improve either the quantity or the quality. The Irish natives are at least usually bilingual, but in many other cases, it would just mean cutting people off.

I used to think a lot more like you. And I still think non English content needs a lot more support, a lot more marketing, outlawing of the geoblocking, and so on. And we need many more international hits from non anglophone countries (for example Poland could have a dozen more Sapkowskis, if only it tried to push their authors abroad like for example the scandinavian countries). But some time ago, I realized that in spite of all the issues (such as the original being always superior in some ways), one should not take the international and translated works for just a damaging element, and reading/watching them for a personal failure as a learner.

For example Harry Potter is everyone's culture in some ways. It will still be a book about British kids with lots of British stuff. But the knowledge of these books and love for them is international. A Spanish native, an Irish native, or a Hungarian native of my generation are much more likely to want to talk about Harry Potter than their highly original (and in some ways much more valuable) classics or poetry.

So, I prefer originals in many ways, I try to not go for the anglophone works (anyways, most English stuff right now is not too original, it has become a sort of a fantasy/scifi factory and even mediocre works get translated, while new masterworks are imprisoned in other original languages). But I don't think learners should beat themselves up for reading translations. And there can be value to reading several translations of something.

Btw hasn't someone clever said, that the main language of Europe is translation? I think it is true. We should not turn the continent into a set of museums, slowly abandonned by the young people. We should support translations from many more languages. Btw it will also give us much better odds at finding the next Song of Ice and Fire, written originally in Irish.

[galaxyrocker]

1.The key to keeping a smaller language alive are the kids and teens. They need to form a strong relationship to the language. If they cannot read a popular work in it, but only stuff they find "boring", "too intellectual", "not cool", they won't form this relationship. Giving them what they want is important for keeping them not only interested, but for keeping Irish (or any language in a similar situation) seen as a real tool that improves your life. Not as a historical residue, that is just taught at schools (because adults enforcing this are dumb and old fashioned), and is dead as soon as you leave the classroom. That's what the Game of Thrones translation does. It can and should lead them to further exploring the Irish bookshelves in the store or a library, sure. But it cannot be replaced by something totally unknown.

See, I think it can. What they need to do is have interesting books in the language itself that they can draw them to, especially when they can all read the originals in English. I would tend to agree if it was, say, a language where most didn't have the ability to read English but since pretty much everyone in Ireland can read English better than they can Irish, we need more "cool" Irish books to draw them to the language, not just ones translated from their already more dominant language.

2.While it seems very noble to strive for keeping the individual traditions alive, we are all part of a bigger european, euroamerican, and global culture. Sure, you can take protecting your culture and keeping it authentic and "clean" very seriously and limit the blows from the outside. But the price is turning the region and its people into a sort of a museum. The Song of Ice and Fire is a part of our shared global culture now. Why create artificial divisions between us? And also further deepen the perception of some languages/cultures as superior and some inferior? Because even if you could forbid publishing translated GoT, it wouldn't generate more books in Irish, it wouldn't improve either the quantity or the quality. The Irish natives are at least usually bilingual, but in many other cases, it would just mean cutting people off.

See, I think the difference is they're already getting access to those things. They're not being cut off from the 'global culture' at all because they already get access to it via English. Instead, they're just seeing what remains of Ireland's great literary tradition dwindle and get taken over by hyped-up works. Unless "cool" works get written in Irish, nobody has any need for it. I also don't think it changes the perception of them as superior/inferior, any more than Irish is already considered 'useless' and a 'peasant's language'. What having great works of literature in Irish does is the opposite. It shows these masterpieces can be created in Irish and that it can support them, without relying on English translations to fill that void. It really comes down to the fact that Irish is in a precarious position, and this just makes it worse.

For example Harry Potter is everyone's culture in some ways. It will still be a book about British kids with lots of British stuff. But the knowledge of these books and love for them is international. A Spanish native, an Irish native, or a Hungarian native of my generation are much more likely to want to talk about Harry Potter than their highly original (and in some ways much more valuable) classics or poetry.

I agree with this. The problem with Irish is again that they all speak English already. So they're tied in to that culture through that. It doesn't need to be translated to Irish for it. What is needed is something to draw to them reading in Irish, new interesting works in the language itself that preserves the culture of it.

But I don't think learners should beat themselves up for reading translations. And there can be value to reading several translations of something.

I do agree learners shouldn't beat themselves up. But if they have a choice between choosing books to read translated from English or ones written in Irish, I absolutely think they should be pushed towards the latter.

We should support translations from many more languages.

I'm absolutely on board with this, and would support translations into Irish from languages other than English. I really want to find the old translations of Don Quixote and (I think) Les Mis. I would support updating those and reissuing them. I support the book that was recently translated to Irish from Scottish Gaelic, and I hope it wins the award it is up for in November. The issue is the translations from English, when everyone can already read English. All it does is get people to buy their favorite pet books and damage the original literary culture of the language.

[Cavesa]

See, I think it can. What they need to do is have interesting books in the language itself that they can draw them to, especially when they can all read the originals in English. I would tend to agree if it was, say, a language where most didn't have the ability to read English but since pretty much everyone in Ireland can read English better than they can Irish, we need more "cool" Irish books to draw them to the language, not just ones translated from their already more dominant language.

Not having the Game of Thrones in Irish will not change anything. The translated book is not preventing the Irish authors from writing. They might want better marketing, sure. But are there many good fantasy books originally in Irish? I am genuinely curious. If so, then it is a marketing problem. If not, GoT is actually doing Irish a service of attracting a part of the public that wouldn't be interested by some different genres.

I think most kids reading GoT in Irish are more likely to choose between reading "cool" translated books and abandoning Irish, than between GoT and a less well perceived Irish book.

See, I think the difference is they're already getting access to those things. They're not being cut off from the 'global culture' at all because they already get access to it via English. Instead, they're just seeing what remains of Ireland's great literary tradition dwindle and get taken over by hyped-up works. Unless "cool" works get written in Irish, nobody has any need for it. I also don't think it changes the perception of them as superior/inferior, any more than Irish is already considered 'useless' and a 'peasant's language'. What having great works of literature in Irish does is the opposite. It shows these masterpieces can be created in Irish and that it can support them, without relying on English translations to fill that void. It really comes down to the fact that Irish is in a precarious position, and this just makes it worse.

I was talking more generally than just about Irish. If for example Czechs would push for this and limit translations to Czech, the only result would be creating a museum. But even the Irish natives might feel it as a cultural divide.

You're right that "cool" books in Irish are a must, for it to be needed (and not just great works. The young people usually don't care, they want the "cool" works or they'll let the language die out. It's harsh, but normal). The translation is a sort of support, to not let the interest in the language and its practice dry out while the Irish writers try to come up with such books.

I agree with this. The problem with Irish is again that they all speak English already. So they're tied in to that culture through that. It doesn't need to be translated to Irish for it. What is needed is something to draw to them reading in Irish, new interesting works in the language itself that preserves the culture of it.

But isn't it therefore wonderful, that their love for HP and similar books is helping them improve their Irish? For example in my country, there were opinions like "JK Rowling has made the kids love reading again!". Perhaps there could be a sort of "translated cool works are making the Irish kids read in Irish again" effect.

Also, as the Irish bilingual kids are already a part of that culture, is insistence on the superiority of the original works really drawing them to their own culture? Or is it drawing them to a memory of a culture that lives no more? They are bound to live in a sort of two worlds, and can either see them bound closely together, or divided. If I were Irish, and passionate about keeping the language and culture alive and evolving, I wouldn't force them to choose.

Please don't take any offense, I am no expert on Ireland, and please correct me if I perceive the situation wrongly. My main source of info was an Irish exchange student in my class in highschool. She spoke about the Irish language too. A normal, quite clever, albeit superficial, modern girl. For her, the Irish language was just a school requirement. She was a patriot, proud and passionate about her country, its culture, and history. But it was obvious that Irish was just a sort of obligation and a useless remnant of the past, that didn't correlate with her interests at all. I suppose she proudly finished her Irish language class requirements after going back home, and then that was the end of the story.

I find it more realistic to just take the stuff people are interested in and use it as a bridge to the language and the "less attractive" works. The alternatives, such as making people genuinely like something they don't want, or waiting for books that may never be written, just don't look like a realistic plan.

I do agree learners shouldn't beat themselves up. But if they have a choice between choosing books to read translated from English or ones written in Irish, I absolutely think they should be pushed towards the latter.

If they have a choice at B1, I'd even recommend a translation of something they know. If they have a choice at C1/C2, I'd recommend reading both, just reading as much as possible, and making sure at least a part of their reading diet are originals. But if they feel like there is nothing for them among the original works, then translations will do. It's ok to see reading as more of a learning tool than a goal, no matter how differently I fell about the isse.

We should support translations from many more languages.

I'm absolutely on board with this, and would support translations into Irish from languages other than English. I really want to find the old translations of Don Quixote and (I think) Les Mis. I would support updating those and reissuing them. I support the book that was recently translated to Irish from Scottish Gaelic, and I hope it wins the award it is up for in November. The issue is the translations from English, when everyone can already read English. All it does is get people to buy their favorite pet books and damage the original literary culture of the language.

And would you feel the same about everybody buying their favourite pet book, originally written in Polish, Czech, Italian, or Finnish? That's perhaps the biggest difference in our views. I think authors in any language should have a fair chance to create a "global pet book". An that it would help us explore and appreciate other cultures a lot. And it would help language learners, because reading the same book in several language versions is great at the intermediate level.

[AllSubNoDub]

I've read tons of translations into my native language - the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Bible, the Art of War - and none of it was detrimental to my English. :3

Seriously though, if you were to compare experiences with well known translations you've had in your native tongue, I think you'll realize it's in no way detrimental. Though you might be missing some of the nuance and cultural aspects of the original here and there, the bones of a good story will stay with you regardless of the prose in which it's couched (at least that's what I look for in a story), and major series are typically very well curated and have tight quality control.

If experiencing sanitized, slightly simplified language causes irreparable damage, then we should all throw out our Assimils tout suite and just rely on Twitter.

[Random Review]

The translation is a sort of support, to not let the interest in the language and its practice dry out while the Irish writers try to come up with such books.

I think the problem Irish has is that Irish writers already do come up with such books... in English. For example, the very successful Artemis Fowl series: written by an Irish author about an Irish main character, partly set in Ireland and written entirely in English (and who can blame the author?). The fact that there does seem to be an Irish translation seems to me much better than nothing.

I think this undescores your point about marketing. My guess (and to be clear I know nothing about the industry and it is just a guess) is that what you say about the Scandinavians marketing their authors internationally more aggressively than the Polish is probably not a coincidence. I don't really know how many Polish authors could equally well write in English; but I honestly think there are so many Scandinavians that could do so that they'd probably have the same problem as the Irish if they didn't market their authors abroad so well. At the moment, they can presumably write in Danish or whatever safe in the knowledge that if their work is good enough, it will be translated and marketed aggressively to the English-speaking market. Languages like Irish need something like that.

[galaxyrocker]

Not having the Game of Thrones in Irish will not change anything. The translated book is not preventing the Irish authors from writing. They might want better marketing, sure. But are there many good fantasy books originally in Irish? I am genuinely curious. If so, then it is a marketing problem. If not, GoT is actually doing Irish a service of attracting a part of the public that wouldn't be interested by some different genres.

I think most kids reading GoT in Irish are more likely to choose between reading "cool" translated books and abandoning Irish, than between GoT and a less well perceived Irish book.

The problem is the translated book is impacting them. Why write a book in Irish if someone is just going to come along and translate whatever the biggest popular hit in English is to Irish (and often translate it poorly!). Why write a book in Irish if there's just going to be more hype around whatever the latest English translation is as opposed to your book? There are several decent fantasy books in Irish, yes. Quite a few retellings of Old Irish sagas and even newer works...But they're never discussed. Also, most people who go out and buy GoT in Irish won't actually ever read it in Irish -- they'll read it in English and buy it for the sake of it being in Irish. Then they'll talk about how they're helping to make the language "modern" and to "save" it. Irish needs more stuff written in Irish.

I was talking more generally than just about Irish. If for example Czechs would push for this and limit translations to Czech, the only result would be creating a museum. But even the Irish natives might feel it as a cultural divide.

You're right that "cool" books in Irish are a must, for it to be needed (and not just great works. The young people usually don't care, they want the "cool" works or they'll let the language die out. It's harsh, but normal). The translation is a sort of support, to not let the interest in the language and its practice dry out while the Irish writers try to come up with such books.

I'm aware, and that's where I think the difference is. Irish is already on life support, and gets weaker each year (regardless of what the census will tell you!) Not because of lack of caring but because of the prevalence of English. The issue is translations from English.

But isn't it therefore wonderful, that their love for HP and similar books is helping them improve their Irish? For example in my country, there were opinions like "JK Rowling has made the kids love reading again!". Perhaps there could be a sort of "translated cool works are making the Irish kids read in Irish again" effect.

Well, it'd be super helpful if the HP translation that exists (only the first one, mind) was actually a children's book...But it's got lots of structures from Classical Irish that even natives and educated non-natives (C1+) struggle with it! But that's a different issue.

Also, as the Irish bilingual kids are already a part of that culture, is insistence on the superiority of the original works really drawing them to their own culture? Or is it drawing them to a memory of a culture that lives no more? They are bound to live in a sort of two worlds, and can either see them bound closely together, or divided. If I were Irish, and passionate about keeping the language and culture alive and evolving, I wouldn't force them to choose.

The issue is there are two separate cultures. There's the culture of the native language, still in the Gaeltacht, then there's the English-language culture in Ireland present everywhere else. The latter is the issue, and with translations it keeps pushing in on the former. The works that come out of the former get little to no regard, and everyone just asks after the greatest translation. They're usually the only books that get a lot of media attention and multiple print runs. It's a huge issue.

Please don't take any offense, I am no expert on Ireland, and please correct me if I perceive the situation wrongly. My main source of info was an Irish exchange student in my class in highschool. She spoke about the Irish language too. A normal, quite clever, albeit superficial, modern girl. For her, the Irish language was just a school requirement. She was a patriot, proud and passionate about her country, its culture, and history. But it was obvious that Irish was just a sort of obligation and a useless remnant of the past, that didn't correlate with her interests at all. I suppose she proudly finished her Irish language class requirements after going back home, and then that was the end of the story.

As I said, there's two different cultures in Ireland. There's the culture of the Gaeltacht areas, which is getting steadily weaker due to linguistic colonialism...And the hype around translations is part of that. I think it might be possible to convince gets to accept and learn about the Gaelic culture, but we can't do that when the only books they see are (a) written by learners or (b) translations.

I find it more realistic to just take the stuff people are interested in and use it as a bridge to the language and the "less attractive" works. The alternatives, such as making people genuinely like something they don't want, or waiting for books that may never be written, just don't look like a realistic plan.

Or we can encourage those things in the language without relying on English, which everyone can already read.

If they have a choice at B1, I'd even recommend a translation of something they know. If they have a choice at C1/C2, I'd recommend reading both, just reading as much as possible, and making sure at least a part of their reading diet are originals. But if they feel like there is nothing for them among the original works, then translations will do. It's ok to see reading as more of a learning tool than a goal, no matter how differently I fell about the isse.

Even treating reading as a learning goal (which I do too), there's plenty of lower level Irish books written by native speakers and/or highly competent non-natives. They can read those, without having to rely on a horrendous HP translation (and I don't think the Hobbit translation was much better).

And would you feel the same about everybody buying their favourite pet book, originally written in Polish, Czech, Italian, or Finnish? That's perhaps the biggest difference in our views. I think authors in any language should have a fair chance to create a "global pet book". An that it would help us explore and appreciate other cultures a lot. And it would help language learners, because reading the same book in several language versions is great at the intermediate level.

The issue really boils down to: all Irish people speak English. If someone in Ireland is going to try to create a "global pet book", they're going to do it in English. Because all Irish people speak English, it doesn't need to be translated into Irish. Doing so doesn't give it access to any new market, and it just takes away hype and interest in the Irish books that already exist and help preserve that culture against the tide of English.


I think the issue really comes down to the fact that it's English, and there's a huge difference between translating English works to Czech and in translating them to Irish, where all speakers already speak English (hell, 90% of them have better English than Irish!).

[Cavesa]

The translation is a sort of support, to not let the interest in the language and its practice dry out while the Irish writers try to come up with such books.

I think the problem Irish has is that Irish writers already do come up with such books... in English. For example, the very successful Artemis Fowl series: written by an Irish author about an Irish main character, partly set in Ireland and written entirely in English (and who can blame the author?). The fact that there does seem to be an Irish translation seems to me much better than nothing.

Yes, you're right. But the Irish translation is a good compromise. But perhaps if Ireland wants to protect its literature, perhaps there should be more support for the authors actually using the language? From money to marketing, and support of immediate English translations (to not punish them internationally). Perhaps some hesitate betweem the two languages, and such support would help them follow their heart without repercussions.

I think this undescores your point about marketing. My guess (and to be clear I know nothing about the industry and it is just a guess) is that what you say about the Scandinavians marketing their authors internationally more aggressively than the Polish is probably not a coincidence. I don't really know how many Polish authors could equally well write in English; but I honestly think there are so many Scandinavians that could do so that they'd probably have the same problem as the Irish if they didn't market their authors abroad so well. At the moment, they can presumably write in Danish or whatever safe in the knowledge that if their work is good enough, it will be translated and marketed aggressively to the English-speaking market. Languages like Irish need something like that.

Why should the Polish authors write equally well in English? Sapkowski is translated to all the languages, including English. Or are the anglophones really so spoilt and above everyone else, that they'd refuse to read a translation? If a French native can love translated Sapkowski, why couldn't an English native? And Poland has a dozen authors, that could be received just as well worldwide, the quality is there! But as long as they are translated to just Czech or another minor language, it's not happening.

The Polish or Irish writers should get the same support as the scandinavian ones. And I think the EU has really a lot of reserves in this area and could do much more!

The problem is the translated book is impacting them. Why write a book in Irish if someone is just going to come along and translate whatever the biggest popular hit in English is to Irish (and often translate it poorly!). Why write a book in Irish if there's just going to be more hype around whatever the latest English translation is as opposed to your book? There are several decent fantasy books in Irish, yes. Quite a few retellings of Old Irish sagas and even newer works...But they're never discussed. Also, most people who go out and buy GoT in Irish won't actually ever read it in Irish -- they'll read it in English and buy it for the sake of it being in Irish. Then they'll talk about how they're helping to make the language "modern" and to "save" it. Irish needs more stuff written in Irish.

But that is not the fault of the GoT or any other similar translated bestseller. If it doesn't get translated, the people you mention just won't buy any book in Irish. It is that simple.

Unless the original Irish works get much more marketing, they won't become popular. For example the original Czech fantasy and scifi has grown so much also thanks to being promoted in the fan magazines and websites alongside the international bestsellers. It wouldn't have grown without new and new readers being attracted to the genres by the translated foreign works over the last decades. It would have stayed low quality, if it didn't have to compete against the international works and without also being affected by them (while keeping a lot of originality and regional specifics!).

I'm aware, and that's where I think the difference is. Irish is already on life support, and gets weaker each year (regardless of what the census will tell you!) Not because of lack of caring but because of the prevalence of English. The issue is translations from English

Then perhaps it should die. Just like the Czech probably should have died 150 years ago. We may be biased as language learners and lovers, but it is natural for some languages to die, if the natives don't strive to keep them not only alive, but up to date and relevant.

If people don't progress from the translated work to also some originals, it is lack of caring. Nothing else. So, perhaps the way to survive for Irish is to blend the two cultures. Or perhaps Irish simply isn't valuable to most speakers no matter what they say.

But that is not fault of the English translations. You cannot build a wall, punish people for import of foreign cultures (especially if they are not that foreign), and expect the population to just genuinely love what they are allowed to. The communists were trying that for decades. Not even the Iron Curtain and draconic punishments for unauthorised culture worked. And one of the effects, a sort of backlash, was an uncritical hype of everything angloamerican, which still lasts in some ways and is part of the historical experience. This backlash has damaging the interest in Czech literature much more imho.

The only way to make the local and global cultures seen as equals is to put them side to side. To treat them as equals.

Well, it'd be super helpful if the HP translation that exists (only the first one, mind) was actually a children's book...But it's got lots of structures from Classical Irish that even natives and educated non-natives (C1+) struggle with it! But that's a different issue.

Then wouldn't it make more sense to support high quality translation to Irish? To create a public demand for varied translations, appropriate linguistically for the target public, and as similar in style to originals (from whatever language) as possible?

This looks like a failure of the publisher and a huge missed opportunity for Irish in the hearts of the kids.

The issue is there are two separate cultures. There's the culture of the native language, still in the Gaeltacht, then there's the English-language culture in Ireland present everywhere else. The latter is the issue, and with translations it keeps pushing in on the former. The works that come out of the former get little to no regard, and everyone just asks after the greatest translation. They're usually the only books that get a lot of media attention and multiple print runs. It's a huge issue.
...
As I said, there's two different cultures in Ireland. There's the culture of the Gaeltacht areas, which is getting steadily weaker due to linguistic colonialism...And the hype around translations is part of that. I think it might be possible to convince gets to accept and learn about the Gaelic culture, but we can't do that when the only books they see are (a) written by learners or (b) translations.
...
Or we can encourage those things in the language without relying on English, which [b]everyone can already read

I see your point, I just don't think blaming the translations or stopping them (if that was possible) solves anything. Create a web magazine about popular literature in Irish. Found a non profit to support authors by marketing. Sponsor the school libraries, so that they buy many more Irish books (and really focus on stuff that can get popular, not primarily on canon). All these things (and many more I cannot think of) can work. And if they don't, then perhaps Irish isn't needed anymore. Sad, but possible. If the natives see Irish as an obstacle and not something genuinely cherished (=used, not just talked about), then it is their free choice to go for what they prefer.

We may find colonialism and its various faces horrible, immoral, or sad. But honestly, I often regret that Czech was successfully revived instead of the population becoming part of a bigger culture 150 years ago. I may not like the German culture, I may find a lot of things about the situation sad. But I simply don't think that the prize outweighted the cost. Sometimes, it is better to just not dwell on something ancient.

But if you want to, then get inspired by the successfully revived languages. Like Czech, Slovak, Hebrew. Even a small group of enthusiasts can succeed, if they use every tool at their disposal, the media that matter in their times, if they create both original content but also translations, if they show that you can use the endangered language for anything YOU want, not only for something others want you to. And if that happens to be accessing translated fun, so be it.

Even treating reading as a learning goal (which I do too), there's plenty of lower level Irish books written by native speakers and/or highly competent non-natives. They can read those, without having to rely on a horrendous HP translation (and I don't think the Hobbit translation was much better).

1. Great. But how will they discover them? Do those books get promoted anywhere? If not, it's not HP's fault.
2.yes, a bad translation is a problem and a reason to go for some originals instead
3.have those Irish books been translated? The HP fans also want to profit from already knowing the book, having read it in another language. Which of the originally Irish books have been translated and can therefore offer the same advantage to the intermediate learner?

The issue really boils down to: all Irish people speak English. If someone in Ireland is going to try to create a "global pet book", they're going to do it in English. Because all Irish people speak English, it doesn't need to be translated into Irish. Doing so doesn't give it access to any new market, and it just takes away hype and interest in the Irish books that already exist and help preserve that culture against the tide of English.

I think the issue really comes down to the fact that it's English, and there's a huge difference between translating English works to Czech and in translating them to Irish, where all speakers already speak English (hell, 90% of them have better English than Irish!).

Then perhaps it is time to give up and just stop pretending Irish still matters. Either there can be a serious attempt to revive it (which doesn't seem to be happening right now and could still fail), or perhaps it's time to accept that English has won on that island. And that the Irish culture will have to "settle" for being unique and authentic through other means.

[Random Review]

Why should the Polish authors write equally well in English? Sapkowski is translated to all the languages, including English. Or are the anglophones really so spoilt and above everyone else, that they'd refuse to read a translation? If a French native can love translated Sapkowski, why couldn't an English native? And Poland has a dozen authors, that could be received just as well worldwide, the quality is there!

Hi, Cavesa. I certainly don't think Polish authors should! I think maybe we have got our wires crossed here, mate.

You say (and I don't doubt you!) that Poland could have many more Sapkowskis if they promoted their authors abroad like the Scandinavian countries. I was just talking about the fact that an impressively high percentage of Scandinavians could write professionally in English and in the absence of the kind of marketing you were talking about would face a strong financial incentive to do so. The reason I said this is because that's basically the incentive system actually faced by Irish authors as far as I can see.

I certainly don't think that Polish authors should somehow be expected to be able to write equally well in English (or even think it would be desirable TBH). I was merely observing that (for independent reasons), a lot of Scandinavian authors could if they so wished. In order to make it clear that I in no way intend the above to be confrontational, I would add that I remember that you used to say that you don't love English much (although I'm slightly in awe of your level) and I understand why you might justifiably feel annoyed with me if I had been implying that Polish authors should be able to write equally well in English. I hope you can see that that wasn't my intention at all.

[iguanamon]

I am someone who has read and reads books in translation in languages. Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol, has always been a small language community immersed in larger language communities. The unique circumstances of the expelled Iberian Jewish community over 500 years ago and settlement within the diverse Ottoman Empire was what developed medieval Spanish into Djudeo-espanyol in the first place.

While Ladino has a centuries old literary tradition, many of the books were translated into the language. After the Holocaust decimated the Sephardic community in Greece and the Balkans, native-speakers number less than 70,000. They are spread all over the world with only a small remnant population left in its former home.

Many of the translations into Djudeo-espanyol from the 18th and 19th century were so altered by the "translators" some are almost separate works. Some of the books' language is calqued French, from the time that the French Alliance Israélite Universelle tried to "educate" the Sephardim. Some translators purged non-Latin words in an attempt to "cleanse" the language of impurities. It's a mixed bag.

Today, there are no monolingual Ladino-speakers. A few classics have been translated by Ladino scholars such as Avner Perez- like "Alice in Wonderland", "El princhipiko" ("The Little Prince" both books are in both Latin and Rashi script) and Homer's "Odyssey". These translations are more faithful to the language and are a font, a wealth, of authentic Djudeo-espanyol. There have been few original authors in the language post World War II. There is such a small market for books in the language that no author could make a living writing in the language. It's a sad fact, but probably most (not all) authors in the world can't make a living solely from writing books, let alone in a small language like Ladino.

So, translations have their place. In a dying language like Ladino, they are a lifeline and a source of authentic language, absent native-speaking authors.

After having been on the forum a number of years, I am aware of the unique situation and condition of Irish, thanks to galaxyrocker. With English being so dominant and prevalent in Ireland for centuries, I don't see translations from English as being necessary or even helpful to the native-speaking community. They could even be harmful if the translations into Irish are calques of English, sometimes using Irish words with English grammar.

Perhaps a lesson can be taken from Catalan, where it seems in my brief time studying the language that translations of popular modern books from Spanish are rarely done. Most translations are from languages other than Spanish. The noir series of the "La Cua de Palla" collection helped to keep Catalan alive by allowing the speakers to read popular mystery/crime novels in their own language during the 1960's, the last full decade of Franco's regime. While this genre of writing is not literary, not everyone wants to read "literature". Sometimes a good mystery is what they want, no matter how coarse or non-standard the language may be. A good mystery/detective/noir novel can encourage reading.

Translations have their uses. The translation of "Robinson Crusoe" into Haitian Creole was assigned reading in Ben Hebblethwaite's (Haitian Creole Linguist/Professor/Translator) University of Florida classroom. He made a study guide and quasi workbook for it too, from which I benefited greatly when learning the language. Since few of us speak Hebrew, Aramaic, variations of non-modern Greek, or, Latin... well, how would anyone read the Bible today? In fact, the pre-reformation Church in Europe had a virtual monopoly on Christianity because most people could not read the untranslated Bible and know its meaning without knowing Latin and Greek.

The classics of world literature need to be made available to students in their own language. This is being done, albeit slowly, in Haitian Creole by an author named Nicole Titus. She has translated Plato and Hamlet into Haitian Creole. In school (as a monolingual English-speaker), I read Moliere, Voltaire, Aristophanes, Socrates, Plato, Herodotus, Marcus Aurelius, Beowulf, Dante, Sun-Tzu, Goethe, Kafka, Cervantes... all in translation. Having read some of the classics of Western literature in my own language makes their wisdom accessible to me... especially when I don't speak Ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramain, Latin, German, French, or Mandarin.

In language-learning, reading a translated novel with which I may be familiar (like "Alice", "Gulliver", "Robinson Crusoe", "Tom Sawyer", "The Little Prince") is a big headstart. I believe in using whatever advantage I can use to make the task of learning a language easier for me. I have more of a chance to figure out language from context and familiarity. Later, I can use translated literature to help me gain vocabulary and idiomatic phrases- up to a point. Original literature brings a wealth of culture and is often easier to read than a translation as the flow is better and there's no worry about translating now obscure 1920's American slang.

Since all Irish-speakers can read English, why would they need or want to read "The Maltese Falcon" or any English original book in Irish? But maybe students could benefit from a good translation into Irish of Goethe, Sun-Tzu, Socrates, Cervantes, or Plato... rather than having to get that knowledge via English.

So, to sum up, I get galaxyrocker's aversion to Irish translations of popular English literature. The dangers are too many to an endangered language already threatened by new-speakers who don't learn an authentic version of the language (still spoken by native-speakers). What Irish needs more than anything is an authentic native-speaking Irish author writing a compelling book in Irish... so compelling that the world will want to translate it into other languages, even maybe English!

[galaxyrocker]

But that is not the fault of the GoT or any other similar translated bestseller. If it doesn't get translated, the people you mention just won't buy any book in Irish. It is that simple.

Unless the original Irish works get much more marketing, they won't become popular. For example the original Czech fantasy and scifi has grown so much also thanks to being promoted in the fan magazines and websites alongside the international bestsellers. It wouldn't have grown without new and new readers being attracted to the genres by the translated foreign works over the last decades. It would have stayed low quality, if it didn't have to compete against the international works and without also being affected by them (while keeping a lot of originality and regional specifics!).

This is where I disagree. I think they could be convinced. But there's no work done by the media to convince them. There's nobody going around saying "Hey, this is similar to GoT read it!" The problem also isn't marketing by the publishing houses. It's the external marketing by being hyped up via word of mouth and newspapers. Publishing houses can't control what they do, and most of them don't care a lick about Irish. But as soon as a new translation is out, they're all over it!

Then perhaps it should die. Just like the Czech probably should have died 150 years ago. We may be biased as language learners and lovers, but it is natural for some languages to die, if the natives don't strive to keep them not only alive, but up to date and relevant.

If people don't progress from the translated work to also some originals, it is lack of caring. Nothing else. So, perhaps the way to survive for Irish is to blend the two cultures. Or perhaps Irish simply isn't valuable to most speakers no matter what they say.

The thing is many speakers find it valuable, and would read such works. But they get no hype when they do come out. But thousands, even those who don't speak Irish, flock to buy the latest translations. I also don't think it 'should' die. The natives are striving to keep it alive, but many political and cultural factors make it harder and harder.

But that is not fault of the English translations. You cannot build a wall, punish people for import of foreign cultures (especially if they are not that foreign), and expect the population to just genuinely love what they are allowed to. The communists were trying that for decades. Not even the Iron Curtain and draconic punishments for unauthorised culture worked. And one of the effects, a sort of backlash, was an uncritical hype of everything angloamerican, which still lasts in some ways and is part of the historical experience. This backlash has damaging the interest in Czech literature much more imho.

No, it's no entirely the fault of English translations, but they contribute to it.

The only way to make the local and global cultures seen as equals is to put them side to side. To treat them as equals.

Again, the issue is that every single speaker of the local culture can interact in the global culture without it being translated/imposed on the native one! They're all native English speakers. It's not like they're not getting access to these great global culture works by them not being translated to Irish. All it does is take away resources that could be dedicated to getting great Irish works.

Then perhaps it is time to give up and just stop pretending Irish still matters. Either there can be a serious attempt to revive it (which doesn't seem to be happening right now and could still fail), or perhaps it's time to accept that English has won on that island. And that the Irish culture will have to "settle" for being unique and authentic through other means.

I think most have accepted that. That also doesn't mean they have to take it lying down and not do anything to stop English from impinging on their culture even more. And that's all translations do.

Perhaps a lesson can be taken from Catalan, where it seems in my brief time studying the language that translations of popular modern books from Spanish are rarely done. Most translations are from languages other than Spanish. The noir series of the "La Cua de Palla" collection helped to keep Catalan alive by allowing the speakers to read popular mystery/crime novels in their own language during the 1960's, the last full decade of Franco's regime. While this genre of writing is not literary, not everyone wants to read "literature". Sometimes a good mystery is what they want, no matter how coarse or non-standard the language may be. A good mystery/detective/noir novel can encourage reading.

Exactly. I'm all for translations in general, but other than English. In fact, I think that might even encourage people to read Irish more if they can get hit Spanish books available in Irish, for instance. And I'm definitely not going to suggest that only "literature" be written/translated! I'd love to see more fantasy works.

The classics of world literature need to be made available to students in their own language.

This was started during the Revival period, with several famous authors translating 'canon' works to Irish. I know editions of Don Quixote (at least part of it) and David Copperfield and some other Dickens works exist. I think a (partial?) edition of Les Mis does too. I know there was an intent to do Homer but I don't know if it was ever done. There's at least two editions of Aesop too, and they actually used to be taught orally.

What Irish needs more than anything is an authentic native-speaking Irish author writing a compelling book in Irish... so compelling that the world will want to translate it into other languages, even maybe English!

One actually got translated a few years ago! Cré na Cille, sometimes stated as the Ulysses of Irish-language literature, actually got two translations in the same year after being published in the 40s. One is much higher quality, translated by a highly professional translator who spoke the same dialect as the author (which the author intentionally uses). The other involves phrases like "holy fuckaroni!" coming out of a 70 year old dead woman in early 20th century Connemara's mouth...

Now we just need more encouragement for people to write more novels similar that get such great praise.