Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby guyome » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:04 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:(...) Exactly. I'm all for translations in general, but other than English. In fact, I think that might even encourage people to read Irish more if they can get hit Spanish books available in Irish, for instance. (...)
This reminded me of what Maltese author Trevor Żahra has to say about Maltese translations of English books:
On the subject of translations, Trevor Zahra has mixed opinions. “I neither condemn nor condone translations into Maltese of Enid Blyton’s Famous Five series and other books. They are excellent if they get children to read in their native language. But these books are quintessentially part of English Children’s Literature. I see no point in translating the brilliant Harry Potter series. Maltese children should be encouraged to know English and Maltese equally well, so they can read these books in English, and other books in Maltese. On the other hand, it would be great if we had more translations of the classics from their original language. I mean, War and Peace translated from Russian to Maltese and even Shakespeare’s works translated into Maltese. The important thing is that War and Peace would not be translated from an English language edition – the Maltese people are capable enough of reading the book in English. Such translations would further enrich the Maltese language.”

Source: http://www.independent.com.mt/articles/ ... age-262970

At first, it seems kind of illogical to single out translations of English books but I must say I find his approach (and yours) quite sensible.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Cavesa » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:20 pm

Random Review wrote:Hi, Cavesa. I certainly don't think Polish authors should! I think maybe we have got our wires crossed here, mate.

You say (and I don't doubt you!) that Poland could have many more Sapkowskis if they promoted their authors abroad like the Scandinavian countries. I was just talking about the fact that an impressively high percentage of Scandinavians could write professionally in English and in the absence of the kind of marketing you were talking about would face a strong financial incentive to do so. The reason I said this is because that's basically the incentive system actually faced by Irish authors as far as I can see.

I certainly don't think that Polish authors should somehow be expected to be able to write equally well in English (or even think it would be desirable TBH). I was merely observing that (for independent reasons), a lot of Scandinavian authors could if they so wished. In order to make it clear that I in no way intend the above to be confrontational, I would add that I remember that you used to say that you don't love English much (although I'm slightly in awe of your level) and I understand why you might justifiably feel annoyed with me if I had been implying that Polish authors should be able to write equally well in English. I hope you can see that that wasn't my intention at all.


Thanks for clarifying. I think we agree more than it seemed to.

The problem is, that this is already happening. For example my favourite author on a sort of reading app (books sold by chapters, various quality) is French, but writes in English for obvious reasons. It's very sad.

We should support high quality translations from various languages to various languages. Not only the Polish authors could beat many anglophones, but also many Czech authors in some genres, and I have no doubts many others too. Heh, not even some French authors get international fame they'd deserve. Much more could be done about this. Not by forcing people or limiting them, but by marketing, by support of such projects, by removing obstacles to natural growth of interest in such stuff.

Of course, there is also the issue of bad translations. But that is a separate problem.

iguanamon wrote:...
So, translations have their place. In a dying language like Ladino, they are a lifeline and a source of authentic language, absent native-speaking authors.

That's a wonderful example and overview of the Ladino situation. Thank you.


Perhaps a lesson can be taken from Catalan, where it seems in my brief time studying the language that translations of popular modern books from Spanish are rarely done. Most translations are from languages other than Spanish. The noir series of the "La Cua de Palla" collection helped to keep Catalan alive by allowing the speakers to read popular mystery/crime novels in their own language during the 1960's, the last full decade of Franco's regime. While this genre of writing is not literary, not everyone wants to read "literature". Sometimes a good mystery is what they want, no matter how coarse or non-standard the language may be. A good mystery/detective/noir novel can encourage reading.

These are great points. Yes, most people are not after the top literature. So, the "low genres" are even more important. But it is interesting that Catalan gets mainly other translations than from Spanish. Perhaps that's the key.

I keep saying that we are too obsessed by the anglophone literature (both low and high) as a civilisation. Promoting more other languages and authors would help. It makes total sense that Catalan speakers would be more enriched by translations of the Polish, French, or Finnish works, than the Spanish ones they understand. Perhaps Ireland could create more incentives for import of non anglophone literature.

The classics of world literature need to be made available to students in their own language. This is being done, albeit slowly, in Haitian Creole by an author named Nicole Titus. She has translated Plato and Hamlet into Haitian Creole. In school (as a monolingual English-speaker), I read Moliere, Voltaire, Aristophanes, Socrates, Plato, Herodotus, Marcus Aurelius, Beowulf, Dante, Sun-Tzu, Goethe, Kafka, Cervantes... all in translation. Having read some of the classics of Western literature in my own language makes their wisdom accessible to me... especially when I don't speak Ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramain, Latin, German, French, or Mandarin.

You're absolutely right. Being against translations is being against wide spread education.

So, to sum up, I get galaxyrocker's aversion to Irish translations of popular English literature. The dangers are too many to an endangered language already threatened by new-speakers who don't learn an authentic version of the language (still spoken by native-speakers). What Irish needs more than anything is an authentic native-speaking Irish author writing a compelling book in Irish... so compelling that the world will want to translate it into other languages, even maybe English!


But I don't understand one point: why is lack of authenticity a problem? Aren't those translators fully bilingual? Isn't the problem therefore employing people, who suck at their job?

Yes, compelling books in Irish are a must. But literature is not a factory line, that will spit tons of products fitting your specifications. You can never be sure that those theoretical compelling books will be written, and when. What needs to be done is more support to the Irish writers.

galaxyrocker wrote:This is where I disagree. I think they could be convinced. But there's no work done by the media to convince them. There's nobody going around saying "Hey, this is similar to GoT read it!" The problem also isn't marketing by the publishing houses. It's the external marketing by being hyped up via word of mouth and newspapers. Publishing houses can't control what they do, and most of them don't care a lick about Irish. But as soon as a new translation is out, they're all over it!


Perhaps the media and publishers need a sort of a push. In the age of the internet, you can relatively easily do their job. If you get a group of enthusiasts, you can even create a sort of snowball effect. I guess a blog describing the awesome Irish books could have much more of an impact than a complaint about GoT.

The thing is many speakers find it valuable, and would read such works. But they get no hype when they do come out. But thousands, even those who don't speak Irish, flock to buy the latest translations. I also don't think it 'should' die. The natives are striving to keep it alive, but many political and cultural factors make it harder and harder.


"Would" is cute. But they are probably not manifesting their desire enough to push the publishers and media into action. You are contradicting yourself. Either the natives are striving to keep it alive, or they don't read Irish books without tons of hype. No offense meant, but this sounds like a nation wide hypocrisy.

The only way to make the local and global cultures seen as equals is to put them side to side. To treat them as equals.

Again, the issue is that every single speaker of the local culture can interact in the global culture without it being translated/imposed on the native one! They're all native English speakers. It's not like they're not getting access to these great global culture works by them not being translated to Irish. All it does is take away resources that could be dedicated to getting great Irish works.


I liked iguanamon's note about Catalan speakers getting translations from non Spanish works, but not the Spanish ones. Perhaps promoting non anglophone foreign literature would be partially helpful. It would widen the option of what to read in the language, especially for people loving something not that often produced by the Irish authors. Given the relatively low % of translated works on the anglophone market, the bilingual Irish speakers could even access a lot of stuff only through Irish. But yes, putting this trend in motion would not be easy.

What Irish needs more than anything is an authentic native-speaking Irish author writing a compelling book in Irish... so compelling that the world will want to translate it into other languages, even maybe English!
One actually got translated a few years ago! Cré na Cille, sometimes stated as the Ulysses of Irish-language literature, actually got two translations in the same year after being published in the 40s. One is much higher quality, translated by a highly professional translator who spoke the same dialect as the author (which the author intentionally uses). The other involves phrases like "holy fuckaroni!" coming out of a 70 year old dead woman in early 20th century Connemara's mouth...

Now we just need more encouragement for people to write more novels similar that get such great praise.


But who cares about Ulysses. A tiny minority of people reads it without being forced at school. The high literature is not the key to saving a language. Either you give people the stuff that can be a part of their daily lives (not only fantasy, my beloved example, but also crime novels, thrillers, scifi, chick lit, romance, comedy, erotic novels, popular science, self help books, and much more), or you can slowly wave the language good bye.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt the value of the high literature for a culture and tradition. I actually have quite a solid background (well above the standard) back from high school and even love some high literature books. But it's important to be a realist. The normal books in people's lives are not on the canon list. And if you want Irish to be the normal language of the nation, you cannot publish just stuff for a few % of people.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby rdearman » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:29 pm

I believe they were saying that book was the equivalent of Ulysses. Not a translation. Like saying GoT is the new War and Peace.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Cavesa » Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:14 pm

rdearman wrote:I believe they were saying that book was the equivalent of Ulysses. Not a translation. Like saying GoT is the new War and Peace.

Yes, I understood it well. Ulysess or its equivalents are not the key to massive popularisation of reading in a particular langauge.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby iguanamon » Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:26 pm

Cavesa wrote:...But I don't understand one point: why is lack of authenticity a problem? Aren't those translators fully bilingual? Isn't the problem therefore employing people, who suck at their job?

In a minoritized language, like Irish- with an endangered native-speaking population, the problem is new speakers who calque their Irish with English to such a point that it is almost "English with Irish words". So the language that a work is translated to has to be the real thing, or it doesn't serve to protect the real thing, rather, it discounts as it not being important enough to value. (So, yes, these are people "who suck at their job". Capitalism probably prevents the translation of books into Irish from being controlled and nationalized. People have a right to write crappy translations.) This leads to new-speakers learning a version of the language that has been radically altered by its contact with the dominant language, English. I've seen reports of this happening to Hawaiian where native-speakers often have difficulty understanding new speakers of the language.

As language-learners, we know that a language is not a cypher code where word equivalents can be plugged and chugged with ease. Idioms for example, in English when someone is overly praising someone or telling a story that seems to be impossible, we might say "Oh, 'you're pulling my leg'." In Spanish "Me estás tomando el pelo" (you're taking the hair") would probably be the closest equivalent. Neither phrase makes sense directly translated (calquing it) into the other. It's not authentic.

Cavesa wrote:Yes, compelling books in Irish are a must. But literature is not a factory line, that will spit tons of products fitting your specifications. You can never be sure that those theoretical compelling books will be written, and when. What needs to be done is more support to the Irish writers. ...

I whole-heartedly agree. Capitalism is the dominant economic force in the English-speaking world whether we like it or not. There simply isn't a a sufficiently large market for works in a language like Irish to prosper without government help. Government subsidies can help, but the money must be spent wisely. Government must also back up the monetary support (subsidy) with active support for the language, when possible.

The argument against that kind of support in capitalism is that "government should not be in the business of subsidizing culture. The free market does that just fine and if, minority language literature, poetry, music, TV or films can't survive without subsidies then it does not deserve government support". That's part of the reasoning so many minority languages are up against in the world today.

Israel, in one sense bucked that trend by reviving (creating) Modern Hebrew, however; Israel, in supporting the use of Hebrew as a cohesive national bonding language, actively discouraged other Jewish language communities from forming neighborhoods and being part of the national discourse. Settlement was spread out so that there would be no Haketia/Ladino/Yiddish/Judeo-Arabic/Judeo-Persian-speaking neighborhoods. Yiddish now is largely the language of the ultra-orthodox community (who have maintained it for secular reasons by reserving Hebrew for religion only) with the vast majority of former Yiddish-speakers' descendants now assimilated into the Hebrew-speaking majority. Ladino is dying in Turkey because of emigration and lack of relevancy for the language in modern Turkish life. This has been the case since the end of the Ottoman Empire there.

During Ottoman rule, for religious reasons, Sephardic Jews could not intermix with the Muslim majority Turks. They were respected as "People of the Book". They paid a tax for being "dhimmis" (non-Muslim monotheists). They lived in their own neighborhoods, sent their children to Ladino-speaking schools, solved their internal community disputes in Ladino-speaking Jewish courts, and so on. Then, after the end of the Ottoman Empire, Turkish nationalism forced the end of publishing books and newspapers in Rashi script. School instruction was in Turkish. The religious courts lost primacy to the state court system. Religious and ethnic persecution became more common forcing many in the community to emigrate. Thus, the language lost relevancy to where it is in the condition that it is now- not having been passed on to children for decades, the community being widely dispersed, the native language being relegated almost exclusively to the elderly.

It is an extremely difficult challenge to keep Irish relevant in Ireland, to keep Welsh relevant in Wales, to keep Native American languages relevant in North America, native languages in Australia, Maori in NZ... and on down the line. People are trying. Sometimes there's government support despite the powerful forces of adherents to the capitalist mindset. It is not an impossible task, but is a large and difficult one, indeed.

We are going off track here from the OP's original question about translated books being detrimental to learning a second language. My opinion, as stated earlier, is that generally speaking, they are not. In fact they can be very useful... up to a point- speaking about self-learners here.
Last edited by iguanamon on Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby galaxyrocker » Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:30 pm

Cavesa wrote:But I don't understand one point: why is lack of authenticity a problem? Aren't those translators fully bilingual? Isn't the problem therefore employing people, who suck at their job?




This might sound rude, but I really don't think you understand the situation in Ireland/with minority languages at all. Most translators claim to be fully bilingual, but they're often not. They're much more weighted towards one language (English) and aren't even native speakers of the other usually. They don't have a super strong grasp of native Irish idiom or phonetics, so they resort to translating English idioms. Even among the official government/EU translators. The bigger issue is that most other people in the country are the same way so don't recognize it as a problem. So what you get is some sort of weird "English in Irish drag" to quote one linguist. It's a huge issue.


"Would" is cute. But they are probably not manifesting their desire enough to push the publishers and media into action. You are contradicting yourself. Either the natives are striving to keep it alive, or they don't read Irish books without tons of hype. No offense meant, but this sounds like a nation wide hypocrisy.


Again, I really don't think you understand the situation. Ireland has, maybe 30k native speakers of Irish left. Out of a population of 5 million. Most people who claim to be 'native' often aren't, not having been raised with the language. There is no nation-wide hypocrisy going on here, the natives, when they want to read, would love to read Irish books. But there's many issues preventing it, translations being one. Another big issue is that 90% of books published are published for learners, even the ones that aren't kids books. So natives get super bored or there's plenty of other issues with it. It's actually a huge issue in Irish media in general as so much of it is geared towards learners, not towards the native speakers; the translations are included in this.

Many natives would love to keep Irish, but the State doesn't do much to help them. It's a very complicated issue, and I really don't think you understand it.

I liked iguanamon's note about Catalan speakers getting translations from non Spanish works, but not the Spanish ones. Perhaps promoting non anglophone foreign literature would be partially helpful. It would widen the option of what to read in the language, especially for people loving something not that often produced by the Irish authors. Given the relatively low % of translated works on the anglophone market, the bilingual Irish speakers could even access a lot of stuff only through Irish. But yes, putting this trend in motion would not be easy.


I've said many times I'm all on board with this. I think it would be great and would love to work on something like this one day if I ever get a good grasp of Spanish.

But who cares about Ulysses. A tiny minority of people reads it without being forced at school. The high literature is not the key to saving a language.


It was meant as an example of a book that was so good it 'had to be translated'. Nothing more.

Either you give people the stuff that can be a part of their daily lives (not only fantasy, my beloved example, but also crime novels, thrillers, scifi, chick lit, romance, comedy, erotic novels, popular science, self help books, and much more), or you can slowly wave the language good bye.
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I also don't see why you can't have both. There's definitely room for both to coexist and be published. But sadly, right now, neither are being published.

And if you want Irish to be the normal language of the nation, you cannot publish just stuff for a few % of people.


The thing is Irish won't be the normal language of the nation. It's too far gone. The best that could be aimed for is bilingualism. But you won't get that by publishing translations. As of right now anything in Irish is already for only a few percent of people (literally less than 1% of the country's population, not taking into account Northern Ireland's pop).

Irish is in a very different situation than most of the languages on the continent. Probably most similar would be Basque, or the Sami languages. Maybe some of the smaller Romance or Slavic ones. But you can't compare how things are in Ireland to how it works in Polish, or Czech. Those are national languages with millions of speakers. Yes, it makes sense to translate English works into them, especially if many don't have a strong command of English. But when all Irish speakers speak English, it doesn't make any sense and it doesn't do anything to promote the literary culture (both high and low) of the language. You just can't discuss those languages and compare them with Irish; they don't work the same.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby galaxyrocker » Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:37 pm

iguanamon wrote:In a minoritized language, like Irish- with an endangered native-speaking population, the problem is new speakers who calque their Irish with English to such a point that it is almost "English with Irish words". So the language that a work is translated to has to be the real thing, or it doesn't serve to protect the real thing, rather, it discounts as it not being important enough to value. (So, yes, these are people "who suck at their job". Capitalism probably prevents the translation of books into Irish from being controlled and nationalized. People have a right to write crappy translations.) This leads to new-speakers learning a version of the language that has been radically altered by its contact with the dominant language, English. I've seen reports of this happening to Hawaiian where native-speakers often have difficulty understanding new speakers of the language.


Yes, to both. A good article for Hawiian is "Tutu's Hawaiian" in Google Scholar. He was a learner who learned it from his grandmother, a traditional native speakers, and does a lot of research into the differences. Apparently this is a problem worldwide, though very little to no research is done on it because of political pressures. I know of someone who got shouted down for just mentioning that the Irish language 'new speaker' researchers came across as obviously biased in favor of those who didn't take native models as what they strive for compared to those who do.

I whole-heartedly agree. Capitalism is the dominant economic force in the English-speaking world whether we like it or not. There simply isn't a a sufficiently large market for works in a language like Irish to prosper without government help. Government subsidies can help, but the money must be spent wisely. Government must also back up the monetary support (subsidy) with active support for the language, when possible.


I learned today that the government budget for Irish books in €1 million. Which is much higher than I was thinking, but still hardly nothing. Without it, though, I doubt there'd be any Irish language publishing houses left.

The argument against that kind of support in capitalism is that "government should not be in the business of subsidizing culture. The free market does that just fine and if, minority language literature, poetry, music, TV or films can't survive without subsidies then it does not deserve government support". That's part of the reasoning so many minority languages are up against in the world today.


Yep, it's a huge issue with Irish, especially given that it's spoken in mostly rural areas. The really annoying part is that those areas were prevented from developing by the government as the first president of Ireland wanted to keep them rural and "pristine"!

It is an extremely difficult challenge to keep Irish relevant in Ireland, to keep Welsh relevant in Wales, to keep Native American languages relevant in North America, native languages in Australia... and on down the line. People are trying. Sometimes there's government support despite the powerful forces of adherents to the capitalist mindset. It is not an impossible task, but is a large and difficult one, indeed.


It is a huge issue. In Ireland it's almost against government support as they like to pay lipservice to the language but then do nothing about the crises in the areas where it's still spoken, which are dying at ever-accelerating rates due to emigration (it's easier for an outsider to buy a house -- outpriced for the natives -- than it is to get permission to build on land your family has owned for centuries!) and the prevalence of English.

We are going off track here from the OP's original question about translated books being detrimental to learning a second language. My opinion, as stated earlier, is that generally speaking, they are not. In fact they can be very useful... up to a point- speaking about self-learners here.


And I absolutely do agree with this too. I just think that for minority languages it's better for the language to stick with native works. For Spanish, go ahead and read HP if that's what you're used to and you know how to use it to further your own ability!
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Cavesa » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:47 pm

iguanamon wrote:As language-learners, we know that a language is not a cypher code where word equivalents can be plugged and chugged with ease. Idioms for example, in English when someone is overly praising someone or telling a story that seems to be impossible, we might say "Oh, 'you're pulling my leg'." In Spanish "Me estás tomando el pelo" (you're taking the hair") would probably be the closest equivalent. Neither phrase makes sense directly translated (calquing it) into the other. It's not authentic.

Thanks for the explanation. But what are all those Irish classes for, if people cannot grasp such an easy idea?
But a professional translator should know better. If they make this sort of mistakes too, they should not get more work and be publicly shamed for being such an incapable failure.

I whole-heartedly agree. Capitalism is the dominant economic force in the English-speaking world whether we like it or not. There simply isn't a a sufficiently large market for works in a language like Irish to prosper without government help. Government subsidies can help, but the money must be spent wisely. Government must also back up the monetary support (subsidy) with active support for the language, when possible.

The argument against that kind of support in capitalism is that "government should not be in the business of subsidizing culture. The free market does that just fine and if, minority language literature, poetry, music, TV or films can't survive without subsidies then it does not deserve government support". That's part of the reasoning so many minority languages are up against in the world today.

Capitalism is much better than communism, which destroys everything including culture. You need to give capable authors, translators etc the opportunity to succeed, and you need to have a space for popular stuff to generate profit. But yes, some sort of subsidies is indeed helpful, if spent well.

I still see the problem as lack of demand, or support (that would also generate demand in a sort of positive feedback loop) of the Irish works, and the low quality of some translators that goes unpunished. The existence of translations per se is not to blame. The low quality is the problem. If free market worked right in this, the bad translator simply wouldn't get another job in the field. Hard to say why it is not happening.

It is an extremely difficult challenge to keep Irish relevant in Ireland, to keep Welsh relevant in Wales, to keep Native American languages relevant in North America, native languages in Australia, Maori in NZ... and on down the line. People are trying. Sometimes there's government support despite the powerful forces of adherents to the capitalist mindset. It is not an impossible task, but is a large and difficult one, indeed.

I have no doubts it is hard. But I wonder whether complaining about translations is gonna solve the issue. Perhaps there needs to be even more support, or it needs to be spent differently. But it will still boil down to the kids and teens choosing to either embrace or abandon the language. And a good translation of a bestseller is a good tool in that, I cannot see how it could be the problem.

We are going off track here from the OP's original question about translated books being detrimental to learning a second language. My opinion, as stated earlier, is that generally speaking, they are not. In fact they can be very useful... up to a point- speaking about self-learners here.


Yeah, I totally agree. Both with the main point and with how we are getting a bit off track, sorry.

galaxyrocker wrote:
Cavesa wrote:But I don't understand one point: why is lack of authenticity a problem? Aren't those translators fully bilingual? Isn't the problem therefore employing people, who suck at their job?


This might sound rude, but I really don't think you understand the situation in Ireland/with minority languages at all. Most translators claim to be fully bilingual, but they're often not. They're much more weighted towards one language (English) and aren't even native speakers of the other usually. They don't have a super strong grasp of native Irish idiom or phonetics, so they resort to translating English idioms. Even among the official government/EU translators. The bigger issue is that most other people in the country are the same way so don't recognize it as a problem. So what you get is some sort of weird "English in Irish drag" to quote one linguist. It's a huge issue.


I'm happy to learn more. But I still cannot understand why is the existence of translations seen as a problem, instead of the quality of the translator and translation.

The translators don't have to pass exams, earn degrees, get certification? If not, there is your problem. If you let unqualified frauds do the job, no wonder the result sucks.

But yes, the low Irish skills of the general population actually explain how can the bad translators keep getting jobs. Because logically, they should be publicly shamed in reviews, and out of the field after one or two disasters. If the community is so small, it would make sense to have a closely knit culture, where a trash translator could be easily ruined. That would be a better solution.

If most people are the same way, and happy about it (since they don't mind the horrible translators), is Irish as you know it even still alive? I mean no offense, but it looks like the natural evolution of the language may just go in a different way than you like (perhaps an objectively bad way), but still a way desired by most natives.

"Would" is cute. But they are probably not manifesting their desire enough to push the publishers and media into action. You are contradicting yourself. Either the natives are striving to keep it alive, or they don't read Irish books without tons of hype. No offense meant, but this sounds like a nation wide hypocrisy.


Again, I really don't think you understand the situation. Ireland has, maybe 30k native speakers of Irish left. Out of a population of 5 million. Most people who claim to be 'native' often aren't, not having been raised with the language. There is no nation-wide hypocrisy going on here, the natives, when they want to read, would love to read Irish books. But there's many issues preventing it, translations being one. Another big issue is that 90% of books published are published for learners, even the ones that aren't kids books. So natives get super bored or there's plenty of other issues with it. It's actually a huge issue in Irish media in general as so much of it is geared towards learners, not towards the native speakers; the translations are included in this.

Many natives would love to keep Irish, but the State doesn't do much to help them. It's a very complicated issue, and I really don't think you understand it.


No, I really don't understand how can it be so difficult for a motivated person to just grab an originally Irish book on the shelf. Is someone holding a gun to their head, forcing them to take a translation instead? No, it is not fault of the translation. It is fault of the originals simply not being attractive enough. It may be fault of marketing, state, or the authors. But they are simply not attractive enough and that should change.

You say it yourself, there are too few books published for adult natives. So, that's the issue. Not what is on the market, but what is missing. If people can choose from only very few books and most of them aspiring to be high literature (=boring for majority of people), then perhaps the language is beyond saving.

Honestly, I find it nice and in theory awesome, that endangered languages are being protected and hopefully won't die out. But as a native of a worthless and formerly engangered language, I see how much better and easier would my life have been, if my country spoke a bigger language instead. So perhaps I don't really understand the issue, because I see bilinguals who can profit from so many privileges provided by English, don't really try that hard to keep the Irish literature alive (as they don't mind bad translations), but then complain. Can you imagine what would many other people give for the privilege of being an English native? For all the luxury? Perhaps I don't understand, because it's my ancestors 100-200 years ago, who were in the situation of the contemporary Irish natives. And as their descendant, I find their "success" at reviving Czech to be very sad and destructive for us. Perhaps the future Irish citizens will be grateful to the ancestors, who will have let the language die out.

From this point of view, the Irish natives sound not only as hypocrites (who would love to read in their language, but do nothing about it), but also very ungrateful for their privileges. I don't mean any offense, but they have all the means to support the Irish literature. It is not forbidden, books are not being burnt, the internet is not being censored, they live in a rich region of the world. They have the means to choose an expensive group hobby such as reviving Irish. Instead they either embrace or complain about bad translations. It doesn't make any sense.

I also don't see why you can't have both. There's definitely room for both to coexist and be published. But sadly, right now, neither are being published.


I agree and understand your frustration about this.

But you can't compare how things are in Ireland to how it works in Polish, or Czech. Those are national languages with millions of speakers. Yes, it makes sense to translate English works into them, especially if many don't have a strong command of English. But when all Irish speakers speak English, it doesn't make any sense and it doesn't do anything to promote the literary culture (both high and low) of the language. You just can't discuss those languages and compare them with Irish; they don't work the same.


But that's not the way it was just a few generations ago, just 150 years ago. Czech was in the same situation. The only difference were the media available in those times. The Czechs succeeded at reviving it. From a minority language of the poor, they rebuilt it into a national language with millions of speakers. But it was a poor decision (which they couldn't have known). They should have strived harder to integrate in the germanophone society instead.

However, their success is undeniable, they did what they had decided to do. And translations were a part of that effort.

If the Irish bilinguals want to make their language more important and national again, they have much better means than the "ancient" Czechs had. But perhaps it will require more positive actions, rather than just settling for low quality or complaining about it. And perhaps Irish will die out and it will be a blessing in disguise, only future generations can tell.
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galaxyrocker
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby galaxyrocker » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:48 pm

I'm sorry if I sound rude. I'm quite frustrated about this conversation. I'll edit this in the morning to make it more polite. Mods, if you think it's too rude, please feel free to remove it. Sorry again.

Cavesa wrote: If free market worked right in this, the bad translator simply wouldn't get another job in the field. Hard to say why it is not happening.


If the free market worked right the only thing published in Irish would be the crappy translations. Most Irish people have horrible Irish, even after learning it for 13 years in schools and don't recognize the mistakes.

But it will still boil down to the kids and teens choosing to either embrace or abandon the language.


The problem is they're not choosing to in most cases. They're forced to because they literally can't use their language.

We are going off track here from the OP's original question about translated books being detrimental to learning a second language. My opinion, as stated earlier, is that generally speaking, they are not. In fact they can be very useful... up to a point- speaking about self-learners here.



I'm happy to learn more. But I still cannot understand why is the existence of translations seen as a problem, instead of the quality of the translator and translation.


Because the translations take the attention from the actual Irish works. Most people in Ireland aren't native Irish speakers, but native English speakers with poor Irish. They jump on the translations, but the natives don't. And then there's calls for more translations over native works, and it's a vicious circle.

The translators don't have to pass exams, earn degrees, get certification? If not, there is your problem. If you let unqualified frauds do the job, no wonder the result sucks.


Some do some don't. But the exams are not very difficult. Like the Irish B2 was more equivalent to a B1 anywhere else I'd say. Not counting translation stuff where it's just a course often and doesn't really og into great grammar detail, etc.

If the community is so small, it would make sense to have a closely knit culture, where a trash translator could be easily ruined. That would be a better solution.


Because the native speakers don't care. They don't read the translations, or they read it in English. But the translations (and other books geared towards learners) push out the works the natives would read.

but still a way desired by most natives.


It's not desired by most natives. It's being forced upon them by the learners that everything caters to. Learners who can't even be bothered to learn the language right. Or, worse, are being taught that they're right by incompetent teachers and then push the natives as "old fashioned" or not "modern".

No, I really don't understand how can it be so difficult for a motivated person to just grab an originally Irish book on the shelf. Is someone holding a gun to their head, forcing them to take a translation instead? No, it is not fault of the translation. It is fault of the originals simply not being attractive enough. It may be fault of marketing, state, or the authors. But they are simply not attractive enough and that should change.


Because these books don't get printed! Translations have much bigger print runs and that's often what's left. Or other books geared towards learners (mostly school kids)

then perhaps the language is beyond saving.


Perhaps it is, but that doesn't mean we should give up fighting it.

Honestly, I find it nice and in theory awesome, that endangered languages are being protected and hopefully won't die out. But as a native of a worthless and formerly engangered language, I see how much better and easier would my life have been, if my country spoke a bigger language instead. So perhaps I don't really understand the issue, because I see bilinguals who can profit from so many privileges provided by English, don't really try that hard to keep the Irish literature alive (as they don't mind bad translations), but then complain. Can you imagine what would many other people give for the privilege of being an English native? For all the luxury? Perhaps I don't understand, because it's my ancestors 100-200 years ago, who were in the situation of the contemporary Irish natives. And as their descendant, I find their "success" at reviving Czech to be very sad and destructive for us. Perhaps the future Irish citizens will be grateful to the ancestors, who will have let the language die out.


I don't know the history of Czech, but I ever doubt it was in a situation comparable to Irish. Also, I'm not saying they have to give up English like you keep repeatedly assuming! They ALL already speak English! It's not like they're losing access to that culture! Bilingual countries can and do exist. Also, I think your whole view that "bigger languages == better/more luxury" misses a whole lot of the deal with Ireland and how Irish is. I truly don't think you understand this, and it shows and comes off as super arrogant ("Well, they already speak English so why not just let the little language die?")

From this point of view, the Irish natives sound not only as hypocrites (who would love to read in their language, but do nothing about it), but also very ungrateful for their privileges. I don't mean any offense, but they have all the means to support the Irish literature. It is not forbidden, books are not being burnt, the internet is not being censored, they live in a rich region of the world. They have the means to choose an expensive group hobby such as reviving Irish. Instead they either embrace or complain about bad translations. It doesn't make any sense.


They try. But there's 30k of them in a nation of 5 million. There's not much they can do, no matter how hard they try.


I agree and understand your frustration about this.


You really don't seem to. You keep talking about how they should be "thrilled" they're speaking English (the language literally forced on them by England, and by their own State after independence) because it provides them so much. You keep acting as if English isn't the reason their native language is dying, and as if it should be praised. You keep thinking these translations, even when they're done by qualified people don't make it harder for natives to get books written for them out. It's all a part of your privileged position of speaking a language with millions of people that doesn't suffer from these problems.

Czech was in the same situation.


I'm sorry I really don't think Czech was down to 30k speakers who were all bilingual in the major language and that the language was merely seen as a "fun little project" by a lot of learners. Not counting the difference the modern media and stuff makes.


If the Irish bilinguals want to make their language more important and national again, they have much better means than the "ancient" Czechs had. But perhaps it will require more positive actions, rather than just settling for low quality or complaining about it. And perhaps Irish will die out and it will be a blessing in disguise, only future generations can tell.


They're also up against a lot more challenges that Czech ever had 200 years ago. Also, a "blessing in disguise" for a language to die out? Really? On a language learning forum no less! It's clear you won't understand what it's like dealing with a minority language situation, and I'm done with replying to you as we'll never agree on anything with it. You just can't speak or understand the experience of literally watching your native language (not mine, I'm merely a learner who tries to fight for the natives over the mass of other learners) die out because your state refuses to accommodate you and the only books you can get are translation. You even say it's a "blessing in disguise" for this language to die! You seriously have no clue. And I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but everything you're saying here is so clueless compared to the actual situation in Ireland, which you can't even speak about and just are making assumptions about how it works in other, major languages.
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Cavesa
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Cavesa » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:34 am

galaxyrocker wrote:
The translators don't have to pass exams, earn degrees, get certification? If not, there is your problem. If you let unqualified frauds do the job, no wonder the result sucks.


Some do some don't. But the exams are not very difficult. Like the Irish B2 was more equivalent to a B1 anywhere else I'd say. Not counting translation stuff where it's just a course often and doesn't really og into great grammar detail, etc.

That is a much bigger issue than the existence of the translations. The solution: make it obligatory to pass a C2 exam, with focus on translation. That's the normal way to go. Really, it is horrible (and I understand your frustration at this point), that basically a new learner could become a professional literature translator after a year of not too hard work. It is unimaginable in most languages, so perhaps the Irish could regulate the qualifications for the translating field better.

If the community is so small, it would make sense to have a closely knit culture, where a trash translator could be easily ruined. That would be a better solution.


Because the native speakers don't care. They don't read the translations, or they read it in English. But the translations (and other books geared towards learners) push out the works the natives would read.


That's the problem. They clearly don't care about their language enough to try to spread it. Caring about something often means being interested in more than just the part that is the closest to your heart. They can read their few original books until the language dies with them. Or they can get out of this small bookshelf, and start promoting the Irish literature, both original and good translation, to their compatriots.

I think what we disagree on is really this. What you describe doesn't sound like really caring to me. And if people don't care enough, than it is a lost fight. They have the means, they just don't use them, because they clearly don't care enough.

but still a way desired by most natives.


It's not desired by most natives. It's being forced upon them by the learners that everything caters to. Learners who can't even be bothered to learn the language right. Or, worse, are being taught that they're right by incompetent teachers and then push the natives as "old fashioned" or not "modern".


Again, that is something that could be changed, if the natives cared enough. Yes, it is not comfortable to care, because it requires action, time, energy, sometimes money.

But as long as the society doesn't punish crappy teachers and crapy translators, as long as it doesn't offer better alternatives, there is no way. The state refuses to insist on qualifications, that is one problem, but it still could be countered. Imagine if the natives cared enough to tell the translator what a trash they are at every opportunity, if they refused to have a beer with them, if there were bad reviews that would be widely shared, if ever. You know, the sort of "bullying" that is still not illegal, but could push the translator to either improving or at least stopping the damage.

What is preventing the natives from being more active? And also from becoming translators themselves?

Because these books don't get printed! Translations have much bigger print runs and that's often what's left. Or other books geared towards learners (mostly school kids)


Ever heard of the internet? It's not a full replacement, but it could serve extremely well.


I don't know the history of Czech, but I ever doubt it was in a situation comparable to Irish. Also, I'm not saying they have to give up English like you keep repeatedly assuming! They ALL already speak English! It's not like they're losing access to that culture! Bilingual countries can and do exist. Also, I think your whole view that "bigger languages == better/more luxury" misses a whole lot of the deal with Ireland and how Irish is. I truly don't think you understand this, and it shows and comes off as super arrogant ("Well, they already speak English so why not just let the little language die?")


And perhaps that's a part of the problem. You think you are the first ones in such a situation, but you are not. You could learn from others, their successes and failures.

Czech was a minority language, all the natives were bilingual (perhaps except for some really tiny minority of overall very uneducated villagers), German was the path to a career, education, literature, communication with the middle and higher classes, everything. It really doesn't sound familiar in any way? The main difference may be just one opposite, that the minority speaking Czech was the bottom of the society, while the minority speaking Irish now may be other classes or the academics. Czechs opted for replacing German. That's why they succeeded and at a very high price.

Some other countries opted differently. For example Belgium is supposedly and officially a bilingual (trilingual) country. But both languages thrive also thanks to the neighbours. Extremely few citizens are actually fully bilingual, most know a few words of the other language. If Flemish wasn't also near identical with the language of the neighbouring Netherlands, it may not have survived centuries. If French wasn't also a huge language, it could have been destroyed even easier (due to lower importance and economy of Wallonie).

Belgium is officially bilingual, but the people are not bilingual. Good luck trying to buy a book in French in Flanders or a book in Flemish in Wallonie. The Swiss, another very known example, is also not a country full of fully bi/tri/quadrilingual people. Not sure whether a nation wide bilingualism is really too common. People tend to idealize this a lot.

They try. But there's 30k of them in a nation of 5 million. There's not much they can do, no matter how hard they try.

It's hard to find exact numbers on the older and similar situations. But if languages like Czech could have been revived even without the internet, if Esperanto could build some culture and popularity from nothing (and a lot of it thanks to the internet), than it really doesn't sound that tragic. A lot of work and time, yes. But the main question is, whether those 30k people within the small nation care enough to invest all that.

I agree and understand your frustration about this.


You really don't seem to. You keep talking about how they should be "thrilled" they're speaking English (the language literally forced on them by England, and by their own State after independence) because it provides them so much. You keep acting as if English isn't the reason their native language is dying, and as if it should be praised. You keep thinking these translations, even when they're done by qualified people don't make it harder for natives to get books written for them out. It's all a part of your privileged position of speaking a language with millions of people that doesn't suffer from these problems.

A privileged position? You really have no clue what you're talking about. How much did you have to pay to learn English? Nothing. The Irish people may have suffered a lot in the past, while the language was being imposed on you. But now, you get the advantages many others would love to have. Perhaps be a bit more grateful for that.

And if you want bilingualism, then make it happen, you have the means. But I don't think it is realistic, because I can clearly see how it works (or rather doesn't work) in the real life in Belgium. Perhaps the Irish people would profit much more from giving up the beautiful dream of two "native" languages, and instead should learn more the foreign languages. Perhaps that could be a nicer difference from the former oppressors. There are various options.

I'm sorry I really don't think Czech was down to 30k speakers who were all bilingual in the major language and that the language was merely seen as a "fun little project" by a lot of learners. Not counting the difference the modern media and stuff makes.


If only the Czech revivalists could hear you. They had to reinvent a large part of the grammar, based actually on a very old bible. So, your "most people speak Irish just badly and it is too affected by English" complaint was exactly the same back then :-D

There are no exact numbers, but it was down to perhaps much less in the cities, and yes, everybody was bilingual. For the initial waves of people resuscitating it, it was not "fun little project", it was a reason for ostracisation.

Yes, the modern media and stuff makes a hell of a difference. The Irish natives now have a much easier situation than the Czechs 200 years ago. It goes both ways. There is the pressure from the anglophone media, but you can use the Internet and other means to fight back. You no longer need to rely on a slow printing machine, your efforts won't get lost so easily, should paper get damaged. You no longer depend on someone else allowing you access in a newspaper.

They're also up against a lot more challenges that Czech ever had 200 years ago. Also, a "blessing in disguise" for a language to die out? Really? On a language learning forum no less! It's clear you won't understand what it's like dealing with a minority language situation, and I'm done with replying to you as we'll never agree on anything with it. You just can't speak or understand the experience of literally watching your native language (not mine, I'm merely a learner who tries to fight for the natives over the mass of other learners) die out because your state refuses to accommodate you and the only books you can get are translation. You even say it's a "blessing in disguise" for this language to die! You seriously have no clue. And I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but everything you're saying here is so clueless compared to the actual situation in Ireland, which you can't even speak about and just are making assumptions about how it works in other, major languages.


I regret very often that Czech exists. The language barrier is a large part of the problems, including what has driven me out of the country. The last century would have been much different without the stupid language barrier, and my compatriots would be very different without it even now. The opportunities of individual people would be totally different, if we didn't have to invest so much in just overcoming a stupid handicap. So yes, "blessing in disguise" could happen. I really wish it had happened 200 years ago in my country.

More challenges are outweighted by more opportunities and more tools. But I took you for a native. You are a learner. It is very noble to learn the language, but I think you are taking it more seriously than the natives and that is the problem. Perhaps the natives don't even really want the tons of new speakers, it would be a totally valid option too.

Yes, I think we should agree to disagree. It is hard to argument with someone, who thinks their situation is absolutely unique and the first in history, while it is clearly not true.

And it is ok to not be for saving of every language even on a language learning forum. There is nothing weird about it. Just like everything else, languages die. And the natives have the right to choose this option. Just like natives of some native north american languages choose to not teach them and let them die out to preserve authenticity, some (like the Catalan natives) strive to keep their languages alive and equal as much as possible, and natives of some languages don't really care. All of these choices are legit.

Loving languages doesn't mean having to cry for every dead one. Yes, I am horrified by the inhuman acts and oppression, that often happen in the phase of making (or trying to make) a language a minority one. I feel for the Irish natives generations ago, whom I believe to have really suffered for their language, I feel regret for the natives from Greenland forced to learn Danish, I feel anger for the way German was imposed on Czechs during the occupation. Any human being should feel outraged by that, because that's what humans wrongly do to other humans. But languages naturally dying out are normal, and only natives have the means to protect theirs from the end.
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