galaxyrocker wrote:The translators don't have to pass exams, earn degrees, get certification? If not, there is your problem. If you let unqualified frauds do the job, no wonder the result sucks.
Some do some don't. But the exams are not very difficult. Like the Irish B2 was more equivalent to a B1 anywhere else I'd say. Not counting translation stuff where it's just a course often and doesn't really og into great grammar detail, etc.
That is a much bigger issue than the existence of the translations. The solution: make it obligatory to pass a C2 exam, with focus on translation. That's the normal way to go. Really, it is horrible (and I understand your frustration at this point), that basically a new learner could become a professional literature translator after a year of not too hard work. It is unimaginable in most languages, so perhaps the Irish could regulate the qualifications for the translating field better.
If the community is so small, it would make sense to have a closely knit culture, where a trash translator could be easily ruined. That would be a better solution.
Because the native speakers
don't care. They don't read the translations, or they read it in English. But the translations (and other books geared towards learners) push out the works the natives would read.
That's the problem. They clearly don't care about their language enough to try to spread it. Caring about something often means being interested in more than just the part that is the closest to your heart. They can read their few original books until the language dies with them. Or they can get out of this small bookshelf, and start promoting the Irish literature, both original and good translation, to their compatriots.
I think what we disagree on is really this. What you describe doesn't sound like really caring to me. And if people don't care enough, than it is a lost fight. They have the means, they just don't use them, because they clearly don't care enough.
but still a way desired by most natives.
It's
not desired by most natives. It's being forced upon them by the learners that everything caters to. Learners who can't even be bothered to learn the language right. Or,
worse, are being taught that they're right by incompetent teachers and then push the natives as "old fashioned" or not "modern".
Again, that is something that could be changed, if the natives cared enough. Yes, it is not comfortable to care, because it requires action, time, energy, sometimes money.
But as long as the society doesn't punish crappy teachers and crapy translators, as long as it doesn't offer better alternatives, there is no way. The state refuses to insist on qualifications, that is one problem, but it still could be countered. Imagine if the natives cared enough to tell the translator what a trash they are at every opportunity, if they refused to have a beer with them, if there were bad reviews that would be widely shared, if ever. You know, the sort of "bullying" that is still not illegal, but could push the translator to either improving or at least stopping the damage.
What is preventing the natives from being more active? And also from becoming translators themselves?
Because these books don't get printed! Translations have much bigger print runs and that's often what's left. Or other books geared towards learners (mostly school kids)
Ever heard of the internet? It's not a full replacement, but it could serve extremely well.
I don't know the history of Czech, but I ever doubt it was in a situation comparable to Irish. Also, I'm not saying they have to give up English like you keep repeatedly assuming! They ALL already speak English! It's not like they're losing access to that culture! Bilingual countries can and do exist. Also, I think your whole view that "bigger languages == better/more luxury" misses a whole lot of the deal with Ireland and how Irish is. I truly don't think you understand this, and it shows and comes off as super arrogant ("Well, they already speak English so why not just let the little language die?")
And perhaps that's a part of the problem. You think you are the first ones in such a situation, but you are not. You could learn from others, their successes and failures.
Czech was a minority language, all the natives were bilingual (perhaps except for some really tiny minority of overall very uneducated villagers), German was the path to a career, education, literature, communication with the middle and higher classes, everything. It really doesn't sound familiar in any way? The main difference may be just one opposite, that the minority speaking Czech was the bottom of the society, while the minority speaking Irish now may be other classes or the academics. Czechs opted for replacing German. That's why they succeeded and at a very high price.
Some other countries opted differently. For example Belgium is supposedly and officially a bilingual (trilingual) country. But both languages thrive also thanks to the neighbours. Extremely few citizens are actually fully bilingual, most know a few words of the other language. If Flemish wasn't also near identical with the language of the neighbouring Netherlands, it may not have survived centuries. If French wasn't also a huge language, it could have been destroyed even easier (due to lower importance and economy of Wallonie).
Belgium is officially bilingual, but the people are not bilingual. Good luck trying to buy a book in French in Flanders or a book in Flemish in Wallonie. The Swiss, another very known example, is also not a country full of fully bi/tri/quadrilingual people. N
ot sure whether a nation wide bilingualism is really too common. People tend to idealize this a lot. They try. But there's 30k of them in a nation of 5 million. There's not much they can do, no matter how hard they try.
It's hard to find exact numbers on the older and similar situations. But if languages like Czech could have been revived even without the internet, if Esperanto could build some culture and popularity from nothing (and a lot of it thanks to the internet), than it really doesn't sound that tragic. A lot of work and time, yes. But the main question is, whether those 30k people within the small nation care enough to invest all that.
I agree and understand your frustration about this.
You really don't seem to. You keep talking about how they should be "thrilled" they're speaking English (the language literally forced on them by England, and by their own State after independence) because it provides them so much. You keep acting as if English
isn't the reason their native language is dying, and as if it should be praised. You keep thinking these translations, even when they're done by qualified people
don't make it harder for natives to get books written for them out. It's all a part of your privileged position of speaking a language with millions of people that doesn't suffer from these problems.
A privileged position? You really have no clue what you're talking about. How much did you have to pay to learn English? Nothing. The Irish people may have suffered a lot in the past, while the language was being imposed on you. But now, you get the advantages many others would love to have. Perhaps be a bit more grateful for that.
And if you want bilingualism, then make it happen, you have the means. But I don't think it is realistic, because I can clearly see how it works (or rather doesn't work) in the real life in Belgium. Perhaps the Irish people would profit much more from giving up the beautiful dream of two "native" languages, and instead should learn more the foreign languages. Perhaps that could be a nicer difference from the former oppressors. There are various options.
I'm sorry I really don't think Czech was down to 30k speakers who were all bilingual in the major language and that the language was merely seen as a "fun little project" by a lot of learners. Not counting the difference the modern media and stuff makes.
If only the Czech revivalists could hear you. They had to reinvent a large part of the grammar, based actually on a very old bible. So, your "most people speak Irish just badly and it is too affected by English" complaint was exactly the same back then
There are no exact numbers, but it was down to perhaps much less in the cities, and yes, everybody was bilingual. For the initial waves of people resuscitating it, it was not "fun little project", it was a reason for ostracisation.
Yes, the modern media and stuff makes a hell of a difference. The Irish natives now have a much easier situation than the Czechs 200 years ago. It goes both ways. There is the pressure from the anglophone media, but you can use the Internet and other means to fight back. You no longer need to rely on a slow printing machine, your efforts won't get lost so easily, should paper get damaged. You no longer depend on someone else allowing you access in a newspaper.
They're also up against a lot more challenges that Czech ever had 200 years ago. Also, a "blessing in disguise" for a language to die out? Really? On a language learning forum no less! It's clear you won't understand what it's like dealing with a minority language situation, and I'm done with replying to you as we'll never agree on anything with it. You just can't speak or understand the experience of literally watching your native language (not mine, I'm merely a learner who tries to fight for the natives over the mass of other learners) die out because your state refuses to accommodate you and the only books you can get are translation. You even say it's a "blessing in disguise" for this language to die! You seriously have no clue. And I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but everything you're saying here is so clueless compared to the actual situation in Ireland, which you can't even speak about and just are making assumptions about how it works in other, major languages.
I regret very often that Czech exists. The language barrier is a large part of the problems, including what has driven me out of the country. The last century would have been much different without the stupid language barrier, and my compatriots would be very different without it even now. The opportunities of individual people would be totally different, if we didn't have to invest so much in just overcoming a stupid handicap. So yes, "blessing in disguise" could happen. I really wish it had happened 200 years ago in my country.
More challenges are outweighted by more opportunities and more tools. But I took you for a native. You are a learner. It is very noble to learn the language, but I think you are taking it more seriously than the natives and that is the problem. Perhaps the natives don't even really want the tons of new speakers, it would be a totally valid option too.
Yes, I think we should agree to disagree. It is hard to argument with someone, who thinks their situation is absolutely unique and the first in history, while it is clearly not true.
And it is ok to not be for saving of every language even on a language learning forum. There is nothing weird about it. Just like everything else, languages die. And the natives have the right to choose this option. Just like natives of some native north american languages choose to not teach them and let them die out to preserve authenticity, some (like the Catalan natives) strive to keep their languages alive and equal as much as possible, and natives of some languages don't really care. All of these choices are legit.
Loving languages doesn't mean having to cry for every dead one. Yes, I am horrified by the inhuman acts and oppression, that often happen in the phase of making (or trying to make) a language a minority one. I feel for the Irish natives generations ago, whom I believe to have really suffered for their language, I feel regret for the natives from Greenland forced to learn Danish, I feel anger for the way German was imposed on Czechs during the occupation. Any human being should feel outraged by that, because that's what humans wrongly do to other humans.
But languages naturally dying out are normal, and only natives have the means to protect theirs from the end.