Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Random Review » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:30 am

Cavesa wrote:But languages naturally dying out are normal, and only natives have the means to protect theirs from the end.


Skirting the whole debate about whether this statement is true (or at least whether it is true for a die off of the magnitude we are currently seeing), I genuinely don't think Irish is a case of languages dying out naturally. Many of these places (from Ireland to the Americas) have something important in common: past occupation by a foreign power. It might be true that nothing unnatural is being done to kill off Irish here and now and in that sense it could maybe look like something natural; but the language was only put into that vulnerable position in the first place by a centuries long occupation.

It only looks natural if you take a snapshot at precisely this moment.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Fay Lora » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:50 am

Not all sources of learning are created equal, and while some may prefer books over videos when it comes to language learning the latter is probably more effective. With subtitles on a video one can observe regional tones, slang words used in everyday speech by native speakers which you might not learn from merely reading alone if that's what you're into.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby tungemål » Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:34 pm

Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental? I think natives of smaller countries like Norway are so used to reading translations, that we don't understand the issue.

Cavesa wrote:...
The Czechs succeeded at reviving it. From a minority language of the poor, they rebuilt it into a national language with millions of speakers. But it was a poor decision (which they couldn't have known). They should have strived harder to integrate in the germanophone society instead.

Are you serious about this?

The history of Czech is interesting, and I didn't know untill recently that the language of for instance the Czech author Franz Kafka was German. I see that the Czech situation was very similar to the one in Norway, with the difference that here the language of administration (Danish) was very similar to the Norwegian dialects. Nationalist movements in the 19th century motivated to revive national languages like Czech and Norwegian and probably others. Later it has been accepted that it's not unnatural for a nation to have and support several languages.

I would think that language enthusiasts would see that as valuable. If you only learn languages out of necessity, you might prefer a world with only a few big languages. But I don't really think it's disadvantageous to be part of a small language culture, while at the same time having to use a dominant international language.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby sfuqua » Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:45 pm

In this crowd I know I don't have to say it but...
A whole world view dies when a language dies.
I learn languages to get glimpses of worlds I would never see otherwise.
Just saying... :D
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Cavesa » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:39 pm

Random Review wrote:
Cavesa wrote:But languages naturally dying out are normal, and only natives have the means to protect theirs from the end.


Skirting the whole debate about whether this statement is true (or at least whether it is true for a die off of the magnitude we are currently seeing), I genuinely don't think Irish is a case of languages dying out naturally. Many of these places (from Ireland to the Americas) have something important in common: past occupation by a foreign power. It might be true that nothing unnatural is being done to kill off Irish here and now and in that sense it could maybe look like something natural; but the language was only put into that vulnerable position in the first place by a centuries long occupation.

It only looks natural if you take a snapshot at precisely this moment.


I have no doubts about the previous generations being opressed and occupied and don't take their suffering lightly. But the natives here and now are the only ones deciding what comes next and are free to pick either option. If they don't put in the extra effort, necessary to keep it alive, then they are choosing for it to end and be fully replaced.

tungemål wrote:Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental? I think natives of smaller countries like Norway are so used to reading translations, that we don't understand the issue.

Cavesa wrote:...
The Czechs succeeded at reviving it. From a minority language of the poor, they rebuilt it into a national language with millions of speakers. But it was a poor decision (which they couldn't have known). They should have strived harder to integrate in the germanophone society instead.

Are you serious about this?

The history of Czech is interesting, and I didn't know untill recently that the language of for instance the Czech author Franz Kafka was German. I see that the Czech situation was very similar to the one in Norway, with the difference that here the language of administration (Danish) was very similar to the Norwegian dialects. Nationalist movements in the 19th century motivated to revive national languages like Czech and Norwegian and probably others. Later it has been accepted that it's not unnatural for a nation to have and support several languages.

I would think that language enthusiasts would see that as valuable. If you only learn languages out of necessity, you might prefer a world with only a few big languages. But I don't really think it's disadvantageous to be part of a small language culture, while at the same time having to use a dominant international language.


Yes, I am absolutely serious. The language barrier has created an illusion that the Czechs belonged to the east and not the west, and we paid for it a heavy price (and are still paying it). It is a language barrier, that allows even very bad people within their fields (typically humanities) to be very influential and detached from the rest of the region or world. A language barrier, that limits the information people typically and easily access. So yes, the revival of the language was not that awesome and without any price, no matter what people learn in schools.

Don't you find it interesting that the most famous "Czech" writers are Kafka and Kundera? And no, it is not just because the original versions of their books could have reached more readers due to bigger populations of the countries. No. Both were good enough to win in a higher leagues. If writers compare themselves to just a tiny Czech literature, are affected only by it, and don't aim higher, they are likely to simply not be that good.

No, I am not for learning only out of necessity. I think people should learn and cherish a language for any kind of value they see in it. But if you don't see enough value in it (for example the Catalan natives are a wonderful example of a people, who see enough value in their minority language and prove it), then it's ok to let it go.

sfuqua wrote:In this crowd I know I don't have to say it but...
A whole world view dies when a language dies.
I learn languages to get glimpses of worlds I would never see otherwise.
Just saying... :D


Yes, nobody doubts the sadness of it. But the natives have the right to let it die either intentionally or by simply not caring about both the quantity and quality of its literature. They have no obligation to keep it alive just for our glimpses of their world.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby sfuqua » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:17 am

Sure.
I encourage my many, many nieces and nephews in the Philippines to learn English above all else. They are from the Visayan (Cebuano) region of the Philippines a place that has been colonized by the Spanish, the Americans, and some would say by the Tagalogs from Manila.
If my pack of brilliant nieces want to write novels in Cebuano after they finish graduate school, great. But I am pretty sure that it is a waste of time as far as any success in the world is concerned. Cebuano is far from dead, but give it a hundred years. The writing is on the wall.
A person has only one life to live, and they have to make their decisions about languages based on what is best for them. And of course nobody owes anything to some Bozo like me from another country. :D

My daughter and I actually had a pretty good discussion about this with a fifteen year old last time I was in Ireland. She HATED Irish language requirements in school. She wondered why I was interested in Irish, since I lived in "wonderful California". I can see her point. It was sort of, like, where does Irish lead? If it doesn't lead anywhere that anybody wants to go, why am I studying it. I see her point. :lol:

I don't think we disagree at all Cavesa, but so much is lost when a language dies. It is a shame. I bet somebody will feel sad at some point. To quote Joni Mitchell, "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'til its gone." I can remember hearing poetic speech in Samoa that I bet will be lost by the next generation. Are sailing chants valuable for the modern person? Certianly not, use GPS, but they speak of another world, a wonderful, terrible world that is gone.

But native speakers shoudn't be preserved in some sort of park, or zoo, or something to make other people feel good. :roll:
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:23 pm

sfuqua wrote:Sure.
I encourage my many, many nieces and nephews in the Philippines to learn English above all else. They are from the Visayan (Cebuano) region of the Philippines a place that has been colonized by the Spanish, the Americans, and some would say by the Tagalogs from Manila.
If my pack of brilliant nieces want to write novels in Cebuano after they finish graduate school, great. But I am pretty sure that it is a waste of time as far as any success in the world is concerned. Cebuano is far from dead, but give it a hundred years. The writing is on the wall.
A person has only one life to live, and they have to make their decisions about languages based on what is best for them. And of course nobody owes anything to some Bozo like me from another country. :D

My daughter and I actually had a pretty good discussion about this with a fifteen year old last time I was in Ireland. She HATED Irish language requirements in school. She wondered why I was interested in Irish, since I lived in "wonderful California". I can see her point. It was sort of, like, where does Irish lead? If it doesn't lead anywhere that anybody wants to go, why am I studying it. I see her point. :lol:

I don't think we disagree at all Cavesa, but so much is lost when a language dies. It is a shame. I bet somebody will feel sad at some point. To quote Joni Mitchell, "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'til its gone." I can remember hearing poetic speech in Samoa that I bet will be lost by the next generation. Are sailing chants valuable for the modern person? Certianly not, use GPS, but they speak of another world, a wonderful, terrible world that is gone.

But native speakers shoudn't be preserved in some sort of park, or zoo, or something to make other people feel good. :roll:


Thank you for an excellent post. I think it catches a big part of the "disagreement" within the thread (but there were several parts of the discussin). I find it sad like probably everyone here, when a language dies, it is certainly a loss. I wholeheartedly agree, that languages should be learnt also for other purposes than just job and money. And that our world would be a bit better, with significantly more bilingual people, who wouldn't have to choose between a language connecting them to their roots and culture, and the language giving them the best opportunities in life.

But it simply feels a bit annoying and bitter, when people with the privilege of a huge native language preach too much about the value of the small or minority ones. Yes, it is much better than being part of the "just speak English/Spanish/whatever bigger language available" crowd, it is better then the oppression meant to wipe out the minority languages. But it is no less of a meddling where one doesn't belong, and it is no less against the minority/small language speakers' interests. They basically tell people, that they should protect the small language (to keep the world a culturally richer place), at their own expense.

Because vast majority of people learns only one or two foreign languages, if any. So, spending their "language slot" on a beautiful and culturally valuable language at the expense of missing out of tons of opportunities given by a different language that is not an easy decision.

If for example those 30000 native Irish speakers don't feel like spending their free time and own money fighting for their language, educating their compatriots, pushing for better quality translations and better marketing of the originals, and so on, it is a totally legitimate decision. If natives of Cebuano focus mainly on English, it is understandable too. If people in Lorraine don't care about learning Lorrain, and choose German as a second language instead (because Lorrain is mainly spoken by a minority of very old people and is therefore professionally useful only in hospitals and care homes, but even then won't bring you more money), it is a totally valid decision too.
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby cpnlsn88 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:28 pm

Let me say first off the debate and discussion about Irish and minority and at risk languages has been very interesting to follow.

Let us not elevate 'literature' into too high a position. A lot of people don't read books, so I don't think books, translated or otherwise, are key to maintaining a language and a community of speakers. Newspapers and TV more likely to be important - not that many people read, and if there is book length treatment then book readers have something to their tastes (maybe something they have already read in English or that they have read other books by an author and are ready to take the plunge).

Local authors don't necessarily create any additional speakers - obviously the translators should be native speakers. That said I am of course in favour of local authors especially in places where the language enjoys a marginal position, or may be threatened. A language should never die if it can be prevented and a literary community should likewise prosper, wherever possible.

I can understand the injunction of 'if you are learning a language like Irish, seek out authentic authors rather than translations where possible' because, where possible - that is transition to true, authentic content as soon as you're able to.

A secondary but important issue is the acquisition or recognition of literary style. Translations vary in quality and might carry more of the colour of the original language than is desirable in a language learner. Put bluntly, educated native speakers set the style in any language in literature. I don't want to exaggerate this point. If I read (in English) the Bible, Homer, Vergil, Ovid, German and French philosophers and modern translations of (say) Russian and French novels I reckon I'd still have a good level of literary English. Still, exposure to TL authentic language has to add something.

For a language learner you could reach a really good level of proficiency without reading any literature, if so desired - there are other forms of input that will do the job.

Many of us value literature and think it's an important part of cultural life. If you care about literature and you learn a minority or threatened language then, yes, you should want to do all you can to promote cultural content in that language (though translations of key literature also contributes to the culture).

Many of us have things translated along the lines of Harry Potter (in my case Agatha Christie). For learners it can be helpful to pick up these types of books as part of the transition to authentic content. To be honest I'm not keen on reading things in my native English and prefer reading in a language I've learned or am learning.

Other things translated that might be beneficial might be text books or non-fiction that gives access to specific areas of vocabulary (e.g science, economics).

A final point I'd make is that access to translations of important cultural works should be available in languages because you should be able to access important works without learning Latin, Greek, French, German, Italian, Russian..... (hats off to the polyglots who do, but it shouldn't be a requirement!).
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Re: Is reading books that have been translated to your TL detrimental?

Postby Vordhosbn » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:06 pm

Translations are better than originals. As Lamont mentions in the comments, he's taking a deliberately somewhat contrarian view, but I think it's a good take on the topic at hand.
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